Personal Wheelchair Budgets

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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 11 Apr 2018, 18:54

Dont know that yet. Just a guess. They may offer more. Maybe not. If you want better than a x chair they would supply they expect you to pay the difference I suppose. And if you want outdoor transport maybe add your mobility allowance.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby ICEUK » 11 Apr 2018, 19:24

When i had my last chair they were really good,

i got quickie groove
120 amp rnet,
lcd joystick
6mph
electric tilt, recline, lift, footplates
lights,
a certain cushion, im particular
gutter armpads

They did limit the speed to 4mph but i plug programmer in and sorted it out.

I have to go and see them soon and my groove is on its way out after 5 years
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 12 Apr 2018, 09:11

Then they *should* offer you either the same chair (mine is the equivelent) or the same in money so you can do your own thing (3 yearly or 5 yearly depending on agreement you have and your destruction pattern!) Plus an agreed figure for a cushion / maintainance. And in my case a back. But theres no universal standards here. Each area is expected to design, evolve, setup its own system and offer it to the public from january 2018. But in true NHS fashion mine hadnt even heard of it, even though I have been doing it for 7 years already...
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby ICEUK » 12 Apr 2018, 10:52

Yea as long as they replace with either the jive or salsa i will be happy. Do they let you keep the chair after 3 or 5 years and then replace it?
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 12 Apr 2018, 10:59

If you take the money you do what you want as you paid for it. If they supply then they own it so dunno. Probably want it back.

One advantage of takiung the money is that you CAN keep it, rebuild it, or buy used. And ebay is full of used chairs like the salsa. You dont want the almost identical jive as its special seating pushes you further forwards. Also they try to make it 5 years. I tell them that I wear out chairs fast, so every 3 years. Which is true, I do! Although less now than 20 years back, I am old... And no dog wanting a 5 mile minimum walk, as soon as I get up. That took 1 to 1.5 hours at full speed. I tried not taking him and he wouldnt leave me alone and harassed me till we went... They learn fast! Regularly walked him to the mcDonalds for a breakfast! Yes he liked them too. Gets expensive.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 16 Apr 2018, 14:35

One of the advantages of taking the money to buy your own is choice.
You get to choose. And you get the option of new, used, or save for 6 years and buy something way more expensive. And end up with either a backup chair every few years, and/or a chair to ebay, or keep for parts.

And in the same way you can spot which houses are privately owned or rented, by the way it is looked after, even from the street, the same happens with powerchairs. Its amazing how much better a privately owned chair gets looked after and maintained...

My house, windows and frames washed and polished. Drive, not a single blade od grass, or a tiny bit of moss growing. POlants and tree are regularly looked after and planted. Curtains, washed and clean. You can see from the street its looked after. Next street, all rented. Every house looks like its been abandoned... And grey curtains, cant tell if the driveway is block paved or jungle...
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby foghornleghorn » 16 Apr 2018, 16:34

Something I've never had anyone explain to me about these Personal Budgets--

If they give you the money as a lump how will that stack up against other things?
When calculating costs for carers, or working out benefit amounts, they take into account income and savings.

Does the Personal Wheelchair Budget money end up in your bank account as savings and/or counted as income, or is it in another pot to request as it is used up while you spend it specifically on the wheelchair?
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 16 Apr 2018, 17:32

It isnt counted as personal money. Since its a wheelchair budget. Same as direct payments. Or mobility allowance. Etc.

Its in a seperate account to be used for powerchairs. But that said in 7 years nobody seems to care. Because this is the money they WOULD have spent, but ity given directly to you instead. So they can then wash their hands of you for 3 or 5 years.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby ICEUK » 16 Apr 2018, 17:37

I think providing you explain what the money is for a provide documentation they should be ok with it
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 16 Apr 2018, 17:42

In other words, keep reciepts.

Although a quick look in my kitchen shows 3 as new powerchairs including 2 never yet used. And a look in my bedroom shows another brand new one. Plus the one I am sat in... And theres two tatty abused ones awaiting rebuild/selling in my garage. So they can hardly say that I havent spent their bit on powerchairs! I challenge then to buy 5 or 6 new chairs for the price of one!
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby foghornleghorn » 16 Apr 2018, 18:26

I thought I was being greedy keep looking at ebay to potentially add to my 4 powerchairs but I don't feel so bad now :lol:

I tend to keep receipts for big things but it's all the little bits and pieces that wear out and are easier to buy and fit than bother dealing with a repairman that probably go uncounted.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 16 Apr 2018, 19:07

The reason you end up with 5 or 6 chairs is because you bought them! And unlike the insurance in the US, or the WCS in the UK, you OWN them. So you look after them, and you tend to maintain and rebuild them because you can and why wouldnt you, they are yours!

So you end up with old tatty ones used for dirty jobs like pressure washing the drive or going to the pub in salt encrusted winter roads. And then you have super clean ones, for distance, or speed, or off road, or meeting the bank manager or going on a date. Or one that does tricks like lift/tilt/legs/recline etc. Useful indoors in winter, or for washing the van! Or if you have a pressure sore etc. And so on. It gives you choice long term.

Once one of these gets tatty and used, just rebuild it totally as or better than new, while using the others. Keep on top! And having less than 2 GOOD backup chairs means you will someday be screwed...
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby segreen » 17 Apr 2018, 16:02

Just recieved a reply to my application for my Personal Wheelchair Budget and I've been turned down on the grounds that "my wheelchairs are not crash test and so I do not meet the Bolton Wheelchair Service specification from a Health and Safety perspective". Hmm... Round 1 to BWS. :argument
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 17 Apr 2018, 18:45

The point is that all those decisions are YOURS to make!
They dont know what you may use that for, to buy (my salsa) to buy used, to maintain your fleet of used chairs, or whatever YOU decide. Its not for them to "assess" your choices.

Its easy to build a chair that would pass anyway. You just over engineer the seating and battery restraint so its safe if it is arrested by the bolt! And then no need to test. Or just tell them that you dont intend driving from the next chair since its not crash tested!

Either way they and you appear to have missed the point of this... :cussing

Take a read. The REASON the scheme exists is exactly this, to allow you to decide what to build, what to spend it on.
download/file.php?id=8102&mode=view

Well the leaflet here specifically says that I was not only ALLOWED to build my own chairs and that in fact this was the entire point of the budget. Created specifically for me to do exactly that!
I was the first, on this scheme created SPECIFICALLY for me initially so that I had the budget to allow me this freedom!

As such it gives the choice on how the money is BEST spent to you, the user. In my case to build my own powerchairs. I was sat in a BM2 heavily modified chair as we discussed this. Theres no doubt about the purpose of the money. To also allow me freedom to buy, my new Salsa, to MY spec, and to modify with seating position/wheels/tyres/programming/various mods/lithium/etc. As I see fit.

So once they start with that holier than thou bullshit, or safety nazi garbage, or responsibility excuses, whip a printed copy of the 2 pages below out. And explain to them that this was the entire POINT if the scheme right from its outset! And to get over themselves.

I might add that it says the pilot started 2018 on here. It did not! It started 7 years back, and I was the only one on it after a major uheaval and discussions with the health department (nigel lansley) and the NHS, and the local authority. After a couple of years there were 4 or five others.

So print these, and shoot them in their own foot with their own promotional leaflets :clap :ak47
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 09 May 2018, 20:42

For what its worth, they offered me £5668 to cover the next 3 years of powerchair use. Plus a cushion I think, by phone, awaiting the paperwork. Which is not too bad. Its about what it cost, less the 6mph options, which is what I expected. But if I disagree when I see what they are basing it on then I can "re-discuss"...
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby biscuit » 10 May 2018, 22:38

Did they agree to 6mph? I'm struggling to make an application. The NHS want me to go to Millbrook to be assessed for an NHS loan chair.

The hoops I have to jump through! banghead If the hoops even exist. I don't believe there's an application process, and so they don't know what to do next. I've got an email address for the person who have me the leaflet, and that's all. She seems to be waiting for Millbrook's bon mot before she'll take a step further about the budget. banghead
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 10 May 2018, 22:42

6MPH? No they priced on 4. But I bought 4 pole 6mph 120Ah, advanced controller etc. But did include a seat back instead. (jay3 or similar still not aquired yet.

They were all caught off guard as they always are with anything not moving by the decade. This is the NHS remember. Socialist medicine. The most inefficent wasteful system possible. They mostly know nothing about it. And little about power chairs. But they are all waiting for whowever is further up the ladded to tell them what to do. And there is nobody! The government told them to develop a system,. get it in place, and offer this to clearly tell everyone what there options are, starting at the beginning of the year. The WCS in almost every area were of course unprepared. To the point of not even knowing that anything like this was in existence. Never mind that they have had 18 months to get organised! Or that my WCS was the pilot, for the last 7 years. Seriously they had no idea.

The wheels in any socialist system turn really slowly. If at all. And everyone has no responsibility for anything. It is all planned from above. The only thing they are good at is meetings, with many people, coffee and cake. Where nothing productive ever happens. So you need to get in there and tell them whaat its about, how it works, and that they started in january. And you demand that they assess you and make an offer, and show you the details of how they assessed, and why they chose the chair they did in black and white. Then you can take a look and tell them whaats wrong with their choice. You also need to be aware that they may offer it over 5 years. I am a heavy user. They saw my trail of wear and tear in the past so offer me a replacement every 3 years. That matters because after 3 years my chairs are completely wrecked. If you sit about watching TV like most do, then 5 years is probaably OK.

You need to make a list of your needs and requirements from a chair and explain why. E.G. in my case, 4 pole motors and 120A controller, for torque, as 2 poles are useless on a rear drive chair at my weight. And explain why you need centre footplate, or seat tilt, or lift, recline, etc. Medical needs. In my case a lot of pressure sores, and ileostomy, and contenance issues to check/change. And leg lift because after about 5 hours my legs swell a lot! You need a way to lift them now and again. Lift? They accepted that as I live alone, cant reach stuff. And bed /chairs/etc different heights. Aids transfering. Put a long detailed letter together as a personal assessement. Backed up with medical info off the net, your doctor, or district nurse etc.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Cal » 02 Jun 2018, 20:13

Maybe an interesting read for wheelchair users in England and possibly Wales (but note that, just like the old wheelchair voucher scheme, the Personal wheelchair budget scheme is not available in Scotland :cussing ):

Article by Cyclone Mobility:

'Understanding the new Personal wheelchair budget'

https://www.cyclonemobility.com/understanding-personal-wheelchair-budget/
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 02 Jun 2018, 23:42

Here in the UK we are still debating having a referendum to see if we should dump scotland or not. :clap :mrgreen:
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby segreen » 06 Jun 2018, 14:51

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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby steves1977uk » 06 Jun 2018, 15:18

My local WCS doesn't know anything about the PWB, I had an assessment over a month ago and all they could offer me was a 4MPH indoor/outdoor chair. When I showed the chap my list of requirements which included 120A PM, 6MPH motors, 73AH MK Gels, etc... He said anything over 4MPH is considered a racing chair :?

But I am getting a new seating system for my modded chair, so I am happy with that.

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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 06 Jun 2018, 16:09

“You’ll find most wheelchair services are unable to fund a raiser powerchair, for example. They’ll fund tilt-in-space or elevated leg rest because that might be a clinical benefit. But a raiser is a social feature. I know we shouldn’t be looking at it like that but the wheelchair services are absolutely right, it has no clinical need, it has a social need.”

Wrong. It depends on your Clinical requirements AND your social, holistic, and other needs. For eg, if its better and easier to converse in a pub, or if it helps for transfers to different height surfaces like sofa, bed, wet room bench, or a different chair its needed! And funded. It all depends how you assess your needs and set out your case/reasons.

The new outlet aims to fill the equipment provision that wheelchair services are largely unable to and Holland-Oakes believes it could be a successful model that the industry will see more of in the near future.

The whole point is for an end user to choose what THEY want, and be funded based on needs such as above.
EG, 120A controlleer, 4 pole 6mph motors? Because I am fat and dont want to be killed crossing a 6 lane road to the pub, and want to be able to actually zero turn and have adequate torque for control! If they disagree, let them fund the chair, and then complain that it wont work properly a lot! Since it wont.

He noted that wheelchair services excel at contract work and providing equipment en masse, but are generally less able to provide the same level of individual attention as private retailers.

True, but I never saw a private retailer that had much of a clue either. Other than on seating.


Anyway I am expecting a cheque to cover 90% my Salsa minus lithium, anytime now. And again in 2 years since this paymenty is a year late.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby segreen » 07 Jun 2018, 12:42

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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby ICEUK » 07 Jun 2018, 14:09

Its all vague, no actual figures just the usual bollox. No wonder no one in the nhs works on there own initiative's
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby biscuit » 07 Jun 2018, 20:44

Holland-Oakes - looks as if that guy does not want PWBs, he's full of arguments against them, not factual or logical arguments either, even contradicting himself now and then. But then, Recare and other mobility companies have an axe to grind, they would not be happy with customers making choices, they want to decide what to sell to customers...Recare's own website says their customers should make an appointment. A far cry from the local supermarket!
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 07 Jun 2018, 23:52

Even though most wheelchair services dont have a clue, mine didnt even know Personal Wheelchair Budgets existed for eg, they do not have a choice.

The NHS is a socialist system. The same wasteful and backward setup as every socialist country - all of which are now collapsed due to inneficiency, or headded the same way. So YOU will need to grab hold of them and give them a shake. The GOVERMENT say, that all WCS in the UK and wales, WILL offer anyone a personal wheelchair budget. Starting Jan 2018. And that they must keep the old voucher scheme system in place in parallel for those not wanting to participate, at least for now.

The fact that they dont have any plans in place, dont know it exiusts, have no printed materials availavle, and dont appear to want to do it, is all irrelivant. Thats their problem not yours. Make them do it, and take them to court if required. And it may be.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby MichaelB » 06 Aug 2018, 14:20

My local CCG won't be providing PWB's for power chairs. I've applied and been refused. My only option is to go to the ombudsman.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 06 Aug 2018, 17:30

They cant refuse. Its available country wide...

From this year.

Me... I started this after a huge way agaiunst the useless WCS. AND WAS DOING THIS 7 YEARS AGO.
https://www.england.nhs.uk/personal-hea ... hns-story/

There are a few others now.

Heres the GOVERNMENT NHS site.
https://www.england.nhs.uk/personal-hea ... r-budgets/

I quote:

Personal wheelchair budgets

In May 2016, Simon Stevens announced that NHS England would be developing a personal health budgets model for the provision of wheelchairs. This work is being led by NHS England’s Personal Health Budget Team, as part of plans for the wider expansion of personal health budgets nationally.

Since April 2017, all clinical commissioning groups (CCGs) in England have been expected to start developing local personal wheelchair budget offers to replace the current wheelchair voucher system.

During 2017/18, all CCGs should publish the details of their personal wheelchair budget offer as part of their personal health budget local offer, usually available on CCG websites.

During the transitional period, wheelchair vouchers should still be made available.

More detailed information about personal wheelchair budgets is available in the frequently asked questions section.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby MichaelB » 06 Aug 2018, 17:56

They can and did refuse,I've got the refusal letter from them. The only recourse is to the ombudsman who might actually understand what the new system means. That decision applies to a number of CCG's in the North East and Cumbria.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 06 Aug 2018, 22:02

https://www.england.nhs.uk/personal-hea ... r-budgets/

Says otherwise! And I am doing this 3 times now! So refusal means disagreeing with parliment.

So this is now wrong?

Since April 2017, all clinical commissioning groups (CCGs) in England have been expected to start developing local personal wheelchair budget offers to replace the current wheelchair voucher system.

During 2017/18, all CCGs should publish the details of their personal wheelchair budget offer as part of their personal health budget local offer, usually available on CCG websites.

During the transitional period, wheelchair vouchers should still be made available.[/color]
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