Should I trust the 2nd Generation TDX chairs?

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Should I trust the 2nd Generation TDX chairs?

Postby Glitterfairy » 20 Nov 2015, 15:36

Does anyone have a TDX 2, or TDX 2 NB
powerchair and what are they like? I know people who had the old version of the chair and know of what happened in the US with Invacare. What are the Otto Bock B500 and B600 like? I need a chair with adjustable electric seating and positioning and good range and battery power. Have tried the Sunrise Medical Jive M and was advised here to go with the TDX chair as there have been incidences of parts needing replacement on the Jive M and it's not well made. I have a Sunrise chair and am interested in Invacare but none other than the TDX fits my needs. I am concerned about the motor/ electrical problems that many people had with the previous TDX version and hope having the 2nd generation version will go well for me. Many Pride chairs I have been recommended in the past are discontinued and Permobil is very expensive but has the features I need.
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Re: Should I trust the 2nd Generation TDX chairs?

Postby rover220 » 20 Nov 2015, 18:07

I would far rather the tdx than either an otto bock or any sunrise chair.

They are no more unreliable than any other chair.
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Re: Should I trust the 2nd Generation TDX chairs?

Postby Glitterfairy » 20 Nov 2015, 18:35

I really don't like my Sunrise and the A200 (the only one I have had from Otto Bock) left me stranded. I wasn't all that convinced by the Sunrise Medical Jive M, especially as when I tried it, the dealer "forgot" to charge it fully and so it didn't perform well because of that. I'm from the UK and was just really concerned with what happened in the US with Invacare and with what I have heard about the problems with the first generation TDX.
I guess though if it wasn't OK the second version of the chair wouldn't be on the market. So far in my new chair search, this has ticked all the boxes for me.
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Re: Should I trust the 2nd Generation TDX chairs?

Postby Sully » 20 Nov 2015, 20:15

If you want to be bored to death I think I have a copy of the order for Invacare to stop constructing medical products from one of their factories (not all were affected) A large amount of what was being punished was stuff we in the non-medical manufacturing world would consider "chicken-shit"! A lot of compulsory paper work, had been omitted by some (possibly many) Invacare official(s) at that factory. In other words even if they had physically complied with some order (safety) they failed to do the paper work to show definitively they had complied with such orders. If you notice their line has been greatly diminished in the USA. A power wheelchair such as the BM 3 would be condemned by the regulatory authorities. IF you build a chair with limited front wheel carrying weight (ie: not nose heavy) this would not pass the "safety" testing. It would be either tippy or too long to be practical for indoor use. The little Invacare Ranger fold-able chair is now non-existent. While some models that we consider junky are OK. See if you can find an 8 Mph chair. I doubt you will, but maybe!

Last week a guy on a wheelchair was mowed down nearby, this got one mention on the news. The driver was not ticketed. The wheelchair operator was not operating in the cross walk. What wasn't said was if there was a place to get onto the street from the side walk, or if indeed there was even a sidewalk present? Another question I have is; could the operator have gotten out of the way if he had a faster power wheelchair? <5 Mph power wheelchairs are intrinsically unsafe under most use on or near high speed roads. My back road has a posted 45 Mph speed limit. Would you consider a 45 Mph speed limit "Slow speed or High speed" No Sidewalk and not even a foot path beside the road, just a road ditch. There are few places of refuge from fast drivers. Anyway I am off subject!

There nothing wrong with the Invacare chairs that should prevent you from assessing them for your needs and requirements.
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Re: Should I trust the 2nd Generation TDX chairs?

Postby Burgerman » 20 Nov 2015, 23:10

From my perspective - they are all the same.

They all basically use the same components.

EG.
All chairs use batteries. Either 55 or 73Ah approx. Manufacturer doesn't matter. Bigger = better unless weight or chair size is important.
All chairs feed this to the controller. There are just a few manufacturers here. Almost all manufacturers pull these from the same pool, and all use most of them... So you can buy Sunrise, Otto, your Invacare, and they can all be fitted with the same controller. This feeds power to the motors...
All chairs use basically the same pool of industry standard motors. So you may find an AMT, Electrocraft, EMD, ETC ETC on any manufacturers chair.

The rest is just seating and a metal bracket that holds these bits in place. In other words I doubt you could decide which was the most reliable based on manufacturer...

For EG

Your TDX may have a PG drives controller, or a Dynamic controller. Likewise it may have a high power version or a weedy one. Or it may have higher speed or lower, 2 or 4 pole. Or small or large batteries. All depending on specification. Just like almost every chair.
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Re: Should I trust the 2nd Generation TDX chairs?

Postby Sully » 23 Nov 2015, 17:07

With the exception of the GB (Brushless) motors in the TDX the variety of other motors as John explains "Will Fit" in the Invacare frames. The GB motors use a whole different bolt up scheme. Lots of the Pride Frames and Motors, have a whole different scheme, most because of this are pretty useless for modification. The motors and controllers of many pride models are useless as built and modification "in my opinion" are useless as well.

I find the original welding on these Invacare frames satisfactory and are fairly easy to narrow up so you can fit wider drive tires with minimal work without major renovations to the whole thing, you simply have to change the battery from East-West to North-South. The front tires on a rear drive Invacare Ranger style (USA) will have to be widened a bit to maintain the close to original foot print which relates to stability. That requires some frame work. But there are many ways to accomplish this, how you want to do it is up to you.

But truly the best frame is the BM modified frame. It maintains the width necessary for maximum stability with a variety of rear wheels and tires. And it looks good.

Your question was are they any good, I would say I believe they are.
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Re: Should I trust the 2nd Generation TDX chairs?

Postby MenCallMeGimpy » 01 Dec 2015, 20:15

Sully wrote:The front tires on a rear drive Invacare Ranger style (USA) will have to be widened a bit to maintain the close to original foot print which relates to stability. That requires some frame work. But there are many ways to accomplish this, how you want to do it is up to you.


I've been looking at a couple of cheap used Rangers ($500-800 range), with a view to converting one into a BM-like chair. Can you elaborate a bit more on what kind of frame work would be needed to move the front casters outward? Is it simply a matter of frame widening/bending, or would I need to cut off the existing caster mounts and weld on new ones attached to outriggers the correct distance apart?

Thanks,

Gimpy
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Re: Should I trust the 2nd Generation TDX chairs?

Postby MenCallMeGimpy » 01 Dec 2015, 23:40

Actually, I just had a look at a Ranger in the metal and it looks like the drive wheels may be the problem. The F55 frame BM uses runs above the wheels, making it relatively easy to fit a variety of wheels/tires without the need to modify the frame itself. The Ranger, however, has a straight-sided frame, with the drive wheels rising an inch or two above the line of the frame itself. Trying to move the motors and wheels inboard would require either cutting away a large portion of the frame or raising the frame to clear the wheels. Neither of these options looks particularly feasible. The first would virtually destroy the frame. The second would create a very top-heavy chair.

Unless I'm missing something obvious, I think this problem eliminates the Ranger as a contender for a BM-type conversion.
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Re: Should I trust the 2nd Generation TDX chairs?

Postby Sully » 10 Dec 2015, 17:16

There is no way to compare the BM chair with a modified F-55 frame to an Invacare frame. The BM utilizes the battery box, this is an entire fabricated piece and then welded to the (modified) frame. The motors (AMT) BM uses side bolted motors, which is also another piece to fabricate drill and tap to give you the side clearance. The motors I am using are bottom mounted and they have relatively long shafts (2.9" long). I can mount my tires with adequate side clearance without the need to use some shim out scheme. The top of the frame has to be a place to mount your seating and another issue entirely.

I am using used and old fold-able frames. And I also am using just the "stuff" I have on hand, excepting any bolts etc are stainless. All of which are available at my local Hardware store. I have to tell you for every change of dimension you make will affect something else later.

The simple Invacare chair frame lends itself to fairly easy modification. But is not simply changing or bolting on parts. You need some folks to do the things you may not be able to do for yourself. The Burgerman has such folks who are willing to do these things for him. Not because he can"t do all these things himself, (I'm quite sure he can) but because he doesn't have all these tools in his bedroom.

Gimpy, anything more than $200 is more than enough for a chair you are just going to tear down. I even got one for nothing. You simply have to keep looking until you find which ever part you need.
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Re: Should I trust the 2nd Generation TDX chairs?

Postby MenCallMeGimpy » 10 Dec 2015, 22:05

Sully wrote:Gimpy, anything more than $200 is more than enough for a chair you are just going to tear down. I even got one for nothing. You simply have to keep looking until you find which ever part you need.


Thanks for the sound advice, Sully. I'm really looking for something I can use as a first project, more to help me learn the ropes and build the skills I'll need to ultimately build a truly high-performance chair. AN F55 frame is really what I want, but those seem to be rarer than hen's teeth (particularly here in the US, where the F55 was never sold) I'm trying to find a suitable alternative, but most of what I've seen is either the wrong shape or made of aluminum, making them much more difficult to work.

The hunt goes on...
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Re: Should I trust the 2nd Generation TDX chairs?

Postby Burgerman » 11 Dec 2015, 00:56

Don't let the aluminium thing bother you. Tig welding may well weaken parts, or make things stressed. But we are talking wheelchairs here that don't go faster than someone can run. Alloys of aluminium wouldn't bother me one bit!

In any case they time/temperature re normalise and harden regardless.
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Re: Should I trust the 2nd Generation TDX chairs?

Postby MenCallMeGimpy » 11 Dec 2015, 01:00

Burgerman wrote:Don't let the aluminium thing bother you. Tig welding may well weaken parts, or make things stressed. But we are talking wheelchairs here that don't go faster than someone can run. Alloys of aluminium wouldn't bother me one bit!

In any case they time/temperature re normalise and harden regardless.


Thanks, BM. Good to know. I've got a line on a couple of old Quickie 626 and 646 frames and, although the lower part of the frame is shaped a little different, the angles aren's insurmountable with careful measurement. I was just a bit put off by the aluminum. I think I'll pick them up and see how it goes.
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Re: Should I trust the 2nd Generation TDX chairs?

Postby Sandiepandie » 08 Jan 2016, 20:29

Hi Guys - guess I'm slightly unusual as I'm a woman looking for a decent set of wheels. I can't "fix it up" as you guys do so really would value serious comments on the TDX2 .

I'm a chunky lass so do need a heavy duty chair, one that can go outdoors and indoors.

I'm looking at spending this huge amount of money (£6,700) - it's an awful lot of money for me, and want to be sure I'm buying a solid, reliable chair.

I've looked at an airide but was told they're not that great.

Trying to find any serious reviews on power chairs is like looking for a pork chop at a Jewish wedding!

Any views would be much appreciated.

Thanks guys!
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Re: Should I trust the 2nd Generation TDX chairs?

Postby Burgerman » 10 Jan 2016, 02:00

Well there are views all over this forum. Try here: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5624
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Re: Should I trust the 2nd Generation TDX chairs?

Postby Sully » 10 Jan 2016, 19:01

Sorry I lost track of this thread.

If you have a tradesman in your wealth of friends, try to hire some of this stuff done. Frames might be sought from some of the Used Wheelchair parts dealers who trade on eBay. This might be a cheaper way out. But if these ideas become popular, then the demand for them will go up. 646 frames once went relatively cheap in the USA, no more though. Those guys read this site and ghost readers and silent builders increase the demand as well. What is sad they don't share their experiences with everyone, we can all learn from that. They either think someone will think they are foolish, or they are selfish and keep this knowledge to themselves.

There are plenty of idea's on eBay to make a modified Ranger. if you narrow a straight frame to enable using wider drive wheels then you pretty much have to widen the front wheels to maintain stability. I don't have the computer skills to draw what I am speaking about. And I do not have any pictures and won'y have for quite a while. Since I moved 1500 miles south i do not have the support people or the tools I shed when I made this move, that I had up North, and my efforts take "two forevers" to come to fruition.

But to widen an Invacare, that is an add on, figure what added width you require, buy a piece of box tubing 1/2" X 1 1/2" the same width of the original OD of the original castor mounts. using the original castor mounts, you can drill your box tubing and put a bolt up (I believe they are 5/8") through the bearings and using thick washers, on the top of the mounts. tighten the whole mess up through the original castor mounts. Remember we go at a maximum of 8 or so miles an hour, a good able runner can run faster, so brute strength of monster welds is not as important. Now you have to concoct your own mounts, or cut off some Castor mounts off a frame, then get them welded on to this piece you made, to the same outside measurement of the wider rear tires . The Box tubing will give you a place to make a foot rest or if your legs are like mine they try to curl under the chair, so you can use the tubing to actually rest your feet. This is not a glamorous looking arrangement. But it only sticks out from the side of the frame a couple of inches or less, so the cantilever like strength is immaterial. But this arrangement is rather simple. Another aside, No marketed frame is in my opinion more adaptable to make a glamorous and maybe useful as well as the one that John uses. "I am NOT trying to replace that" only trying to make an inexpensive off road or beach chair.

If someone is creating a strictly out door chair
I plan to extend the front castors to lessen the weight bearing on the castors. They are the single thing that bog you down in soft going. You also want to use different castor tires and wheels for the front also. 6 to 8 inches forward is quite a bit, and for soft sugar sand a foot forward may not be too much. Nice wide tires are imperative for this, and maintaining at least the original maximum outside width so the wheels and tires are parallel will maintain stability, and will allow you to pass through most doorways. However it will very much narrow your turning radius. That is for the most part unimportant on a beach.

I want to remove the upper seating tubing, because of the height we added below. If you ever decide to use LiFePO4 batteries then you will also remove some bottom weight. Just how much you have to compensate for that may or may not become an issue. I cannot see how anything could cause more problems than Pb/lead batteries. But some weight can be added to the underside of the battery if that becomes necessary. (COG) Minor amounts of weight and height may big differences in Center Of Gravity (COG) so if you add some height, you might try to compensate by lowering and lightening the upper structure. And I have been looking for a seat similar to what I added to a dirt race car. it was a formed fiber glass comfortable seat, weighing less than two pounds (1 kilo) (eBay fishing seats or the big box stores). Since the box frame of the chair is now narrowed a bit flat stock can be used to bolt it down and fasten some seat belt of your choice if you want. In the dirt track car I used some three point seat belts with this seat. When you are out "four wheeling" slipping side ways is a possibility, "my" lateral stability" seated is shaky. And since I just had my cervical spine fused I do not need more problems or pain from that. I do not want to flip myself out of these things. The longer you make these things the less opportunity you have to flip it backwards as well. But if you make too long you may not be able to visit the beach Pubs or Bars! Lots of activity there, and an old man in a powered beach chair sometimes get some attention!!! Where you have steel against steel use plastic/nylon washers that will reduce squeaking or steel against steel. The ideas I have and want to build, can be fabricated in pieces and added (Bolted)to a standard framed Invacare chair.
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Re: Should I trust the 2nd Generation TDX chairs?

Postby smithy2389 » 14 Mar 2016, 11:37

Glitterfairy wrote:Does anyone have a TDX 2, or TDX 2 NB
powerchair and what are they like? I know people who had the old version of the chair and know of what happened in the US with Invacare. What are the Otto Bock B500 and B600 like? I need a chair with adjustable electric seating and positioning and good range and battery power. Have tried the Sunrise Medical Jive M and was advised here to go with the TDX chair as there have been incidences of parts needing replacement on the Jive M and it's not well made. I have a Sunrise chair and am interested in Invacare but none other than the TDX fits my needs. I am concerned about the motor/ electrical problems that many people had with the previous TDX version and hope having the 2nd generation version will go well for me. Many Pride chairs I have been recommended in the past are discontinued and Permobil is very expensive but has the features I need.

I have a Jive and can confirm its shit with dodgy parts but when it works!!!!!!!!!! its ride is far superior to the TDX. Problem with TDX is its slow, terrible ride comfort and Invacare
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Re: Should I trust the 2nd Generation TDX chairs?

Postby smithy2389 » 14 Mar 2016, 11:42

Sandiepandie wrote:Hi Guys - guess I'm slightly unusual as I'm a woman looking for a decent set of wheels. I can't "fix it up" as you guys do so really would value serious comments on the TDX2 .

I'm a chunky lass so do need a heavy duty chair, one that can go outdoors and indoors.

I'm looking at spending this huge amount of money (£6,700) - it's an awful lot of money for me, and want to be sure I'm buying a solid, reliable chair.

I've looked at an airide but was told they're not that great.

Trying to find any serious reviews on power chairs is like looking for a pork chop at a Jewish wedding!

Any views would be much appreciated.

Thanks guys!

Please excuse me fr commenting on your weight. My friend was also a chuncky chap and the TDX was very unstable at drop curbs on crossings. it would lurch forward nearly throwing him out and made his feet touch the floor as the CofG is way forward. If your above 14 stone I would avoid mid wheel chairs as they all have terrible balance or faulty suspension.
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