My New Permobil F5

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My New Permobil F5

Postby wheelboy » 17 Aug 2015, 12:18

Hi,

Few years ago i got a permobil c350. After permobil ajusted it it was ok .Only the shockabsorbers were horrible it was sitting in a chair without any form of absorbing esp when i got back problems because i fell out of my hand wc twice last year.

Last week after 6 months my permobil f5 arrived with breast fixation and a sit fixation belt. In my old c350 i wouldnt go to roads that are bad i tried to drive as much as i could on asvalt wich wasnt possible here in my neighbourhood. SO THE FIRST KILOMETER WAS HELL FOR MY BACK!! Even strapped to the back and the sitpants .That was with the c350

Now i have the F5 for a week now and the weather was very good .I went out in the forrest drove (didnt drive 3 days outside because of the weather ) 95km with it and even on bad roads ore in the forrest (few times) i never experienced real pain only some discomfort when i hit a bad road ore bump. It has real good shock absorbers. Were the 350 had a bad factory ajustment and permobil needed to come over to ajust it .I only experiance some minus points when i ride in a curve than it lowers its speed. No catepulting out of the chair when slowing down .The seat comfort is perfect i feel a bump in my lower back right were it needs to be. all ajusmtments high/low seat legrest backrest negative and positive tilt are perfect. Also 12km/h speed .They are beginning to learn .

display has a clock speed backlight ajust hand ore auto .colour display daytrip counter .hrs and km counter .reset both by pushing both switches on topside.

now the Negative things

the new steering is little small so when steering i have pushed the horn a lot of times .
when pumping up the tyres (could be some ajustment need to call the provider) to the advised pressure the seem to hit the fenders.
the plastic seems to atrack a lot of dust .
and still between 25/30 km max range .than it needs hrs to get full batterys

For the rest its a great chair to sit in and a big step forwards .I love the looks of it also
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Re: My New Permobil F5

Postby Ardillaroja » 19 Aug 2015, 06:29

I got my F5 three weeks ago. My old chair is a Quickie S-646 SE. I did not get Corpus seating -- I have a Jay back and some kind of stimulite cushion that I'm not using because I have several that are older and better. I have tilt and the elevator. My footrests are aftermarket swingaway heavy duty footplates by Motion Concepts, made of steel. These are nice but they are somewhat awkward with this chair. I keep having to adjust them so that they fit without making the chair ridiculously long. In general my only complaint so far is that the chair is somewhat too long. I think this is probably done for stability. It would not be as long as if I had the Corpus legrests but I really hated those. I also have the heavy duty joystick -- it is 5" tall and does look a little bit silly. It's not really that disproportionate to the chair, really, though. It has been raining here a lot so I haven't driven the chair a huge amount, but so far it drives pretty nicely. The highest curb I was able to take it over so far was 2.5 inches. It did okay but kind of lurched back more than I would expect. At first I could not figure out how to drive the chair in my house -- then I stumbled across a youtube video where some Permobil dude explains it. Let's say you want to turn into a room from a somewhat narrow hallway. You drive as close to the wall as possible and then once the front wheel is just past the doorpost you turn. This works fine going in and going out backwards. I tried to drive it through 3 1/2 inches of gravel but it got completely stuck and had to be dug out. I have flat free tires. I also have the snow tires -- if I like the snow tires after the winter, I might switch to the pneumatic because I feel the flat free tires are not particularly impressive. I found that with some small changes to the programming the chair was easy to drive after I got used to it. I have always only had rear wheel drive. I think I have had about 8 "power" chairs since 1987 -- One was a Quantum chair that only lasted 6 months. Mostly I've had Quickie and I think two Invacare. Overall, this is a nicer chair although slow -- only 7.5 mph. I want to say that the ride is much smoother than any other chair I've had. I think some people (therapists and sales people) are under the impression that you will not feel anything when driving this chair, which is completely not true. Still, it's a big improvement. Overall, then I really like it but I must repeat that the length is extremely annoying and to me it seems stupid that Permobil builds the chair around the idea that no one will use swingaway footrests. Finally, I do not understand why Permobil can't even make their chairs go as fast as Quickie. I considered a Bounder chair, but, honestly, the look is just too outrageously hideous. -- Oh, I almost forgot. I am in the USA and the vendor billed my insurance $74,000 + dollars for the chair. This is like a joke because the insurer has a set rate that they pay and the company accepts it. So the chair actually only cost about $22K which is still absurd, but way less than a third as absurd.
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Re: My New Permobil F5

Postby Burgerman » 19 Aug 2015, 16:34

Speed... Not really the manufacturers problem.
The limit is this: The largest BATTERY commonly used in a powerchair is the 70Ah (approx.) Group 24. Because bigger ones are too heavy, too bulky, meaning a longer or wider chair.

On the face of it its EASY to make a chair faster. You just use taller gearing, or different motor windings. (Same result)

So its like this.
A 4 MPH chair may have 20 mile range, and has plenty of torque, even with a weedy low power controller, because it uses a low level of amps all of the time. Batteries give great range, chair lots of torque, and controller can be cheap low power...

A 6 MPH chair is a slight compromise. The main difference is that the gear ratio (or motor winding etc) takes 1.5x as much power from the controller, and the battery, at ALL TIMES. At every speed. Even if you never go faster than the 4mph chair. As such all else being equal, you will have around 1/3rd less torque, and 1/3rd less range. So now its 12 miles, and it wont go up a curb as easily. ***This is simple physics and there's no way around this. It also needs a 100 to 120 Amp controller to give adequate ramp, turning performance, and sucks more from the battery.

An 8 MPH chair, takes DOUBLE the battery power to travel at the exact same speeds, and double the power (Amps) at every turn, and on every slope or ramp, as a 4 MPH chair does.
This is because of its taller gearing, needed to reach 8mph at 24V. So it has HALF the battery range. It has HALF the torque (all else being equal, but often the motors are "bigger" to help, using yet more power). This chair is extremely hard on batteries, and these reach end of life much faster, and because of something called the Peukert effect, You actually get less Ah from the battery if you discharge it faster. So making range even worse. These chairs use a 100 to 120A controllers (usually the latter) and its not adequate. So torque suffers. But that's the biggest the industry has, and more than the batteries can provide easily.

So why 7.5 (slower than the quickie)? That manufacturers best choice/compromise between torque, range, battery longevity, for the average user.

Reality:
If you live somewhere flat, weigh as much as a ballerina, don't care about having a properly programmed responsive chair that jumps to your command, get an 8.5mph chair.
For the average user, 6 to 7.5mph is a best compromise - somewhere in the middle.
For a heavyweight (Bariatric) a 4 or 5 mph 4 pole motor, with largest controller available gives adequate range and extra torque.

Its all a compromise.

***Faster is possible, but not with current powerchair technology. To get my own powerchair to be 16mph capable, with a 20 stone me sat in it, with mountains of torque and control and massive 45 mile real world range, took a voltage increase to 45 volts, instead of gearing increase, and a robotics controller that is 150A+ capable at 45V, and a lithium battery that stores as much power as SIX group 24 lead batteries! http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/BM-MK3- ... rchair.htm
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Re: My New Permobil F5

Postby c500user » 10 Mar 2016, 01:55

I just found out that there is a problem with the F3 and F5 when use in conjunction with a Permolock.

On the C500 the pins used to connect to the Permolock retract into the chassis when not used, resulting in normal ground clearance. The ground clearance of a stock F5 is 76mm (3") and the Permobil catalog mentions that the pins mounted under the F5 for the Permolock also retract, but they do not. There are two 52mm (2") metal pins hanging under your wheelchair, just waiting for something to catch. The Permolock C3 manual actually has a warning that ground clearance is reduced by 52mm and the installer must attach a special sticker to the control unit to warn the user.
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Re: My New Permobil F5

Postby Burgerman » 10 Mar 2016, 02:00

It matters where this i too. With wide tyres its harder to hit it, and if mounted directly between the drive tyres its also harder to hit it.

2 inches ground clearance is OK if its in the right spot for most purposes.
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Re: My New Permobil F5

Postby c500user » 12 Mar 2016, 03:31

No, not 2 inches ground clearance but ground clearace reduced by 2 inches to less than 1 inch!

See attached Permolock C3 manual. I know it is in Dutch, but the English language manual I have seen does not mention the F5.
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Re: My New Permobil F5

Postby c500user » 12 Mar 2016, 03:46

I could not upload the PDF so made a screenshot of the relevant page.
Attachments
Dutch Permolock C3 manual F5 page.jpg
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Re: My New Permobil F5

Postby Burgerman » 20 Feb 2018, 12:14

No, not 2 inches ground clearance but ground clearace reduced by 2 inches to less than 1 inch!

See attached Permolock C3 manual. I know it is in Dutch, but the English language manual I have seen does not mention the F5.


Then its useless.
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