I voted leave part 2

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Re: I voted leave part 2

Postby Burgerman » 14 May 2019, 15:13

No you dont.

Its all irrelivant. We voted out. Completely out. Not half out. Not some deal. Not soft brexit. Not remain. Not mays halfway house. None of that.

And it wasnt a vote about economics, and we were clearly toild that we would be poorer and all the rest. We voted to LEAVE completely, regardless of all the technicalities that you get hung up on.
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Re: I voted leave part 2

Postby wheelie junkie » 14 May 2019, 17:40

Burgerman wrote:No you dont.

Its all irrelivant. We voted out. Completely out. Not half out. Not some deal. Not soft brexit. Not remain. Not mays halfway house. None of that.

And it wasnt a vote about economics, and we were clearly toild that we would be poorer and all the rest. We voted to LEAVE completely, regardless of all the technicalities that you get hung up on.


But the political system isn't going to let that happen. 100's of years of representative democracy stands in the way. If May gets that agreement through it is done, over, finished we leave, not what you want but that is life. If you want to stop it you need a general election or a second binding vote. Election will be May's trump card when she tries again, she will threaten her own MP's with it if they don't vote for the agreement. General election would result in no party winning, coalition of possibly Tory and Brexit party, remain vote would be split amongst Labour and the smaller parties. That might break the stalemate but still no guarantee of a no deal Brexit.

The system is f'cked.
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Re: I voted leave part 2

Postby Burgerman » 14 May 2019, 17:57

But the political system isn't going to let that happen.

It cant prevent it. Wait a bit.

100's of years of representative democracy stands in the way. If May gets that agreement through it is done, over, finished we leave,

Again. May deal is NOT leave in any way. It doesent much matter what she does. Her deal is remain. By a different name. A real party that is yet to come will overule all the EU nonsense and do what we voted for. eVEN IF ITS 5 YEARS AWAY.
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Re: I voted leave part 2

Postby wheelie junkie » 14 May 2019, 18:22

What will they overrule? We have paid the money, agreed citizens rights, accepted the backstop (which will probably be used as trade deal won't happen) Temporary implementation period ended. We will have our own laws, no freedom of movement. The biggest problem will be NI and backstop limiting free trade but that might never be solved without breaking up UK and NI. Different if we end up with a customs union but that looks less likely by the day. It is a mess however you look at it.Quite glad that I have a life expectancy of 5 years at times.
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Re: I voted leave part 2

Postby Burgerman » 14 May 2019, 19:57

What will they overrule?


Anything agreed with the EU. I and most leavers do not recognise their power over us. So anything remainer may agreed. We will simply leave as we voted for. Go home, and put the key to the office through the letterbox.

We have paid the money,
Thats stage payments, and over many years. So we will stop paying.
agreed citizens rights, accepted the backstop

Unaccept it, and ignore anything may agreed since she is a traitor. Do our own thing.
We will have our own laws, no freedom of movement.

I see you have NOT read any of mays 'deal' than!!! :lol:
Rubbish! Thats why we want no part of here surrender document.
The biggest problem will be NI and backstop limiting free trade but that might never be solved without breaking up UK and NI.

We will have no backstop, and we will have no limit to trade because we will leave completely. And non of that rubbish will be recognised.
Different if we end up with a customs union but that looks less likely by the day. It is a mess however you look at it.Quite glad that I have a life expectancy of 5 years at times.

A leave with no deal, means non of this remainer may deal will matter. We will be completely out as we voted for. Could have done that 3 years ago.
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Re: I voted leave part 2

Postby greybeard » 14 May 2019, 22:54

Haven't read everything here, but haven't noticed anyone mentioning solicitor Robbin Tillbrook's pending high court action against the government claiming that May's Article 50 extension was illegal and that we did in effect leave the EU legally on 29/03/2019. It seems that other legal eagles including former judges, now say they agree with his argument.

If he ever gets the necessary crowdfunding to get his case before a court, the outcome could be very interesting. I read that May's government is determined to do everything in its power to prevent the case being heard.

Wonder why if, as it claims, there is no substance to Tillbrook's case?
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Re: I voted leave part 2

Postby Lord Chatterley » 14 May 2019, 23:08

wheelie junkie wrote:
The more £ foreign countries have the more they control the value of the £. If China decided to sell all its £ the value would drop.


Again, it's not countries that buy currency - it's private investment companies, banks, hedge funds, and individual traders. If the Chinese govt sells its UK currency holdings at the wrong price (which it always must do) they will make a loss and others will profit from their mistake.

wheelie junkie wrote:
Free market economy should not need duty but government uses it to raise revenue or protect local industry especially from state subsidised industry as in China. Anti dumping duty another example of that.


Let them dump. We get their stuff at a market discount and save money to spend elsewhere.

wheelie junkie wrote:
Countries don't trade with each other but do set the rules for trade, Ideally as free and open as possible. They'll also include quality and standards in that. We have all that to work through unless we initially adopt EU standards.
All those rich emerging economies want to sell to us not us to them and if it was so great a potential why hasn't Fox signed them up?


Because Fox is Keynesian not an Austrian.

If he were Austrian he would return this country to unilateral free trade - a policy which has always worked in the past and will always work in the future.

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Re: I voted leave part 2

Postby Lord Chatterley » 14 May 2019, 23:32

greybeard wrote:Haven't read everything here, but haven't noticed anyone mentioning solicitor Robbin Tillbrook's pending high court action against the government claiming that May's Article 50 extension was illegal and that we did in effect leave the EU legally on 29/03/2019. It seems that other legal eagles including former judges, now say they agree with his argument.

If he ever gets the necessary crowdfunding to get his case before a court, the outcome could be very interesting. I read that May's government is determined to do everything in its power to prevent the case being heard.

Wonder why if, as it claims, there is no substance to Tillbrook's case?


According to the US Constitution only Congress has the authority to declare war. How many wars has the US engaged in since WW2 (plenty) and how many were declared by Congress? (Zero.)

That's how it works my friend.

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Re: I voted leave part 2

Postby Burgerman » 15 May 2019, 09:55

Dont forget. 1 week to go.

Vote farage's brexit party to let those in parliment that betrayed the voters that they are now in deep shit. This is basically the 2nd referendum, or a very strong country wide opinion pole and parliment know it.
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Re: I voted leave part 2

Postby wheelie junkie » 15 May 2019, 17:17

Almost the first paragraph of May's agreement
RECALLING that, pursuant to Article 50 TEU, in conjunction with Article 106a of the Euratom Treaty, and subject to the arrangements laid down in this Agreement, the law of the Union and of Euratom in its entirety ceases to apply to the United Kingdom from the date of entry into force of this Agreemen


Not everything in that agreement is wrong.

Try reading the document and the backstop and being tied to it is the big problem, that needs to be sorted. Almost everything else, things like settled status have been accepted, written into UK law and won't be repealed as those citizens are in effect British. The same goes for UK citizens living in the EU, revoking parts of an agreement puts them in a vulnerable position. These are the kind of things that had to be agreed upon even in a no deal Brexit, basic human rights that need to be clearly defined.

It'll be interesting to see how repealing parts of a financial agreement which impacts upon employee rights goes down. Can't see Farage wanting his EU pension stopped.

Wish that I was a lawyer specialising in international treaties and law, you'd be able to retire on the money earned.
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Re: I voted leave part 2

Postby Burgerman » 15 May 2019, 17:24

True.
However most of it is a remainers surrender document that leaves the EU in charge of the UK. and in no way forms any part of the leave the eu, that people including me, voted for and won. So at best its a new remain treaty. That nobody wants.
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Re: I voted leave part 2

Postby Burgerman » 15 May 2019, 17:32

Try reading the document and the backstop and being tied to it is the big problem, that needs to be sorted.


I started reading it the day it appeared on the net. At about 1/4 the way through I didnt need to know any more.

The backstop CANNOT be sorted. Its not possible to have diufferent rules, taxes and immigration laws with no border. So tough.
And so it leaves us IN the EU with them telling us what to do. We never voted for a backstop or any deal. We voted to LEAVE.

Almost everything else, things like settled status have been accepted, written into UK law and won't be repealed as those citizens are in effect British.


I disagree with that too. And not to me they are not.

The same goes for UK citizens living in the EU, revoking parts of an agreement puts them in a vulnerable position. These are the kind of things that had to be agreed upon even in a no deal Brexit, basic human rights that need to be clearly defined.


And it will be. Even with no deal. But thats a technicality. You seem to get hung up on those, and not see the bigger picture. We voted to leave. No type of political union is acceptable.
It'll be interesting to see how repealing parts of a financial agreement which impacts upon employee rights goes down. Can't see Farage wanting his EU pension stopped.

He sees the bigger picture, if its stopped thats the price of freedom from the EUSSR, but it will not be.
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Re: I voted leave part 2

Postby wheelie junkie » 15 May 2019, 17:44

Lord Chatterley wrote:
wheelie junkie wrote:
The more £ foreign countries have the more they control the value of the £. If China decided to sell all its £ the value would drop.


Again, it's not countries that buy currency - it's private investment companies, banks, hedge funds, and individual traders. If the Chinese govt sells its UK currency holdings at the wrong price (which it always must do) they will make a loss and others will profit from their mistake.

wheelie junkie wrote:
Free market economy should not need duty but government uses it to raise revenue or protect local industry especially from state subsidised industry as in China. Anti dumping duty another example of that.


Let them dump. We get their stuff at a market discount and save money to spend elsewhere.

wheelie junkie wrote:
Countries don't trade with each other but do set the rules for trade, Ideally as free and open as possible. They'll also include quality and standards in that. We have all that to work through unless we initially adopt EU standards.
All those rich emerging economies want to sell to us not us to them and if it was so great a potential why hasn't Fox signed them up?


Because Fox is Keynesian not an Austrian.

If he were Austrian he would return this country to unilateral free trade - a policy which has always worked in the past and will always work in the future.

LC


Forex trading is like any market you buy when you think the price is low, sell when you think the price is high or are happy with the profit you have made. If anyone bought £ at its lowest point there probably isn't a wrong time to sell as they'll have made a gain. Slightly different for UK manufacturers buying raw materials or parts where you have to guess what the £ is worth in 6 or 9 months and tend to use forward contracts but at least you have goods rather than currency which you can't control the price of.

Anti dumping protects jobs which helps a countries economy. It can decimate a complete industry with a knock on to every day life. If that happened in every industry you would have no manufacturing just cheap imports. Nothing to export only services, back to Thatcher's economics. Normal duty should not be needed but competing with state subsidised industry is unfair and I can see why countries impose anti dumping duty.
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Re: I voted leave part 2

Postby wheelie junkie » 15 May 2019, 18:19

We agree on the backstop but the only real solution has severe consequences for both the UK and NI, we definitely didn't vote to split the union.

People's rights aren't technicalities, action or no action leaves some vulnerable that isn't acceptable to me. If I was an EU citizen living here or UK citizen living in the EU I would want clarity and to be treated fairly not wait until some time in the future uncertain of what that future was.

First we need to see what happens before 31 October, if we can't agree a way forward the EU might well give you a no deal exit which solves any arguments we might have here.
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Re: I voted leave part 2

Postby Burgerman » 16 May 2019, 01:51

We agree on the backstop but the only real solution has severe consequences for both the UK and NI, we definitely didn't vote to split the union.

And why on earth would we?
If we need a border then have one. If criminals and religous nuts want to kill or whatever thats a SEPERATE ISSUE. Shoot them. We should not be held to ransome by terrorists in any way. In any case there are open borders all over the world, all paperwork is done long before, and after the goods are shipped. Its just an excuse by the EU/may to cause problems since she is a remainer. Another exscuse to ignore the vote.

People's rights aren't technicalities, action or no action leaves some vulnerable that isn't acceptable to me. If I was an EU citizen living here or UK citizen living in the EU I would want clarity and to be treated fairly not wait until some time in the future uncertain of what that future was.

We are civilised, and there are eu citizens here and ours there. So obviously regardless of in or out of the EU there will be some agreement. And why should that require ant ties to the EUs political union that we never asked for or wanted? And I disagree. There are bigger things that are more important, so these are technicalities.

First we need to see what happens before 31 October, if we can't agree a way forward the EU might well give you a no deal exit which solves any arguments we might have here.

There was never any option but to leave. Which you call a no deal. I said 3 years back that when you leave the golf club you dont still pay them. You dont have them tell you what to do. You dont still get to use the green or that little car. Leave means exactly what it says on the tin. That IS what the majority clearly voted for THREE YEARS ago!!! So I certainly hope you are right. Or we will have a farage government or similar that does it properly after the event regardless. Because the cat is out of the bag. The peple now are waking up to what the EU actually is and they dont like it. And its not only here. The sooner it caves in and splits up the better. Theres only 2 large pro EU countries left in that are left in. The rest all take out money, but disagree with the EUs politics.
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Re: I voted leave part 2

Postby wheelie junkie » 16 May 2019, 10:26

Slightly more complex than just a border, despite the DUP bleating that they want to be equal they can't be as Good Friday agreement gave NI citizens the right to dual citizenship which was written into NI constitution (unlike us they have a constitution) so any change needs to be made by Stormont. Leave an open border and it isn't just goods, people cross it thus leaving the UK without control of who comes in, cross from Ireland into NI and then onto Scotland via a ferry with no checks. An open door for anyone wanting to come here illegally. So we need control either on the Ireland/NI border or NI/UK border. Soft border isn't an option if you want control of movement of people which was what people voted for.
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Re: I voted leave part 2

Postby Burgerman » 16 May 2019, 10:49

Then a full border. So what. We voted to leave. I have therefore absolutely no problem with a good solid border with the EU. In fact that was what I expected would happen on all borders, sea, plane or land. Thats what an independent country does.
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Re: I voted leave part 2

Postby wheelie junkie » 16 May 2019, 14:44

Hard border brings the question where? NI/Ireland or NI/UK no politician wants to get into that one and really it should be up to NI citizens. Another referendum to divide a country. Set that rolling and I can guarantee that the SNP will be wanting another independence referendum, surprised that London hasn't tried for independence to remain in the EU before now :) . Welcome to Little Britain
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Re: I voted leave part 2

Postby Burgerman » 16 May 2019, 15:48

Hard border brings the question where?

Between the UK and the EU obviously. We voted to leave eu. Not leave Ireland.

NI/Ireland or NI/UK no politician wants to get into that one and really it should be up to NI citizens.

They already did get into that, and aked us to vote. The UK voted to leave as a group. Ni is a part of the UK. So theres nothing for any politician to 'get in to' as you put it. We already decided to leave, as the UK.

Another referendum to divide a country. Set that rolling and I can guarantee that the SNP will be wanting another independence referendum, surprised that London hasn't tried for independence to remain in the EU before now :) . Welcome to Little Britain


We are going in circles. We voted LEAVE. What new referendum? After we leave, in a generation or so, then you can run a losers re-run of the Leave or remain. And again scotland can do the same because they too stated it was a once in a generation referendum. They didnt say endless reruns till the people voted the right way.

Anyway, theres about a doZen people in scotland. Who cares. We should have has a referendum to see if the rest of britain still wants them.
I might also ask, whats the point of going for independence only to they rejoin the EU SO YOU ARE NOT INDEPENDENT IN ANY WAY? tHAT STURGON WOMAN IS NUTS.
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Re: I voted leave part 2

Postby wheelie junkie » 16 May 2019, 17:01

So hard border NI and Ireland, that requires changes to Good Friday agreement which is what no politician wants to get into.

A majority in NI and Scotland want to remain in the EU obviously the vote was UK wide so they can't. As you say the SNP wanting independence from the UK on one hand to be tied to the EU on the other is contradictory but if they were to win a leave means leave UK independence vote and go on no deal terms we'd be left with a rather large debt/GDP ratio. And putting another hard border in, possibly just rebuild Hadrian's wall.

You won't stop Sturgeon pushing for it, one policy party just like Farage has. The SNP just want to take back control and make their own laws, oops and include a few EU ones.
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Re: I voted leave part 2

Postby Burgerman » 16 May 2019, 17:06

So hard border NI and Ireland, that requires changes to Good Friday agreement which is what no politician wants to get into.

Tough. They ask us to vote. We voted leave. Thats their job. Just scrap it and shrug shoulders. Blame voters.

A majority in NI and Scotland want to remain in the EU obviously the vote was UK wide so they can't. As you say the SNP wanting independence from the UK on one hand to be tied to the EU on the other is contradictory but if they were to win a leave means leave UK independence vote and go on no deal terms we'd be left with a rather large debt/GDP ratio. And putting another hard border in, possibly just rebuild Hadrian's wall.

Theres so few of them its irrelivant.

You won't stop Sturgeon pushing for it, one policy party just like Farage has. The SNP just want to take back control and make their own laws, oops and include a few EU ones.

Let them. Good riddance.
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Re: I voted leave part 2

Postby wheelie junkie » 16 May 2019, 18:46

The debt they would leave us from RBS fiasco and subsequent bail outs/QE isn't irrelevant. Saying that given the length of time spent trying to exit the EU I can foresee it taking a generation to split Scotland from us. By the time any of that happens we'll be rid of 2 party politics and into European coalition style government so we rid ourselves of Europe but end up more like them.
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Re: I voted leave part 2

Postby Burgerman » 16 May 2019, 20:17

You get hung up on details. What matters most is that we leave the EU. As voted. And from day 1 the only way to actually do that was to go home, run our own country and sort out any 'deals', later on if we agreed on it. I want no part of a political union. I have nothing against a trade agreement. The world trade organisation is one too. If we can do better, without any political union, then thats fine. Afterwards.
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Re: I voted leave part 2

Postby wheelie junkie » 17 May 2019, 10:48

What matters most is that we fix our political system so that we can leave. Those details I consider are what is stopping it happening. If you want direct democracy then our representative democracy should not be able to hold it up.That means constitutional change, I know you'll say ignore it but our laws are there for a reason.
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Re: I voted leave part 2

Postby Burgerman » 17 May 2019, 12:38

You dont need to do anything to leave. Just send 1 letter out of politeness to say you are gone.
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Re: I voted leave part 2

Postby wheelie junkie » 17 May 2019, 14:06

Well send it and you will be left, problem solved.
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Re: I voted leave part 2

Postby Burgerman » 17 May 2019, 16:21

Yes but me sending it means only I am out...

The elected government must send it. Or maybe the queen...
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Re: I voted leave part 2

Postby wheelie junkie » 17 May 2019, 18:51

Yeah, those technicalities I look at are a pain, democratic process and law getting in the way :)
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Re: I voted leave part 2

Postby Burgerman » 18 May 2019, 00:52

Democratic processes may have made the rules. But not in the EU case. They are non democratic. And in the UK we had a democratic vote. Thats been ignored too. If we actually leave, non of the EUs laws are recognised by us. We are gone. We just tell them so. And wave :wave:

What they going to do? Send in the tanks? Oh wait...
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Re: I voted leave part 2

Postby wheelie junkie » 18 May 2019, 10:12

Er, what are the elections for this coming Thursday? Democratically elected members of the European parliament where policies from the European Council which is made up of elected PM, s are discussed and voted on. The only non democratic bit is voting for the likes of Farage who hardly attend and waste our participation. Our representative on the fishing committee attended 1 out of 43 meetings doing f'ck all to help our fishing industry. Then moaning about the result. Yeah, more technicalities but that is the way democracy works, you elect a representative and expect them to represent you not take the salary, expenses and pension and not attending.

Our system is hardly democracy, you have a PM elected by her party, she appoints a cabinet of her cronies who set out what the parliamentary agenda will be and the policies to be implemented. You've got no say in any of it as the referendum shows. Even direct democracy hasn't worked, the PM and cabinet do what they like. Leaving the EU is not important until power gets handed back to the people not to the idiots that we have. If the referendum had been legally binding we'd be out, parliament would have had no say, couldn't stop no deal just have to accept that we leave. That is how direct democracy should work. We can't trust our representatives and need to move on, look at how the Swiss semi direct democracy works and realise that we can have people power directing our future, leave the EU and let the people have control should be the goal not just leaving and being stuck with the way things are now.

On a positive note we should of seen the back of Corbyn's custom union now that the Tory/Labour talks have failed.
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