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Re: crossfall

Postby Tomkilmore » 08 Sep 2018, 16:03

Also actuators that respond quick enough, maybe minature hydraulics, and trying to fit in in place without increasing seat pan height too much. So there really are no chairs out there that even try to get over this very common problem?!
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Re: crossfall

Postby woodygb » 08 Sep 2018, 16:21

Tomkilmore wrote:Also actuators that respond quick enough, maybe minature hydraulics, and trying to fit in in place without increasing seat pan height too much. So there really are no chairs out there that even try to get over this very common problem?!


I'm not aware of any chairs that have this self leveling mechanism.

Hydraulics will require a pump ,valving , oil reservoir etc ... I'd not go that route.

I would probably try mounting the seat pan on a Drive Shaft Universal Joint Rubber Donut ( 4 bolts to the chassis & 4 to the seat ) or just a prop shaft type U.J....then use some actuators ....
Getting what you want in terms of speed of reaction and force from the actuators maybe problematic.

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Re: crossfall

Postby Tomkilmore » 08 Sep 2018, 16:33

I don't much like the idea of the rubber donut (or is it doughnut?) although it would take out some vibration, don't know why, lol. small hydraulic sysyems have come a long way since I was an apprentice, lots of power for other functions too, very reliable and hard wearing. Done correctly I could do away with a reac lift mechanism and just use the cylinders. I am also thinking of very simple mechanical system with no control, just gravity.
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Re: crossfall

Postby Burgerman » 08 Sep 2018, 17:09

Dont see any gain, unless the seating is either lower or the track and wheelbase is increased markedly. Or tipping beyond about 10 to 15 degrees means it will either fall over of at least be unstable, unsafe, and not controllable. Eugenes wobbly leg thing does this now. Again, I see no point in it. Its a solution to a problem that doesent exist on a 2 wheel drive bar stool to exadurate a little for clarity!
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Re: crossfall

Postby Tomkilmore » 08 Sep 2018, 17:21

It does exist, just not for you. Therfore to you, it doesn't exist.
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Re: crossfall

Postby Burgerman » 08 Sep 2018, 17:42

:fencing
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Re: crossfall

Postby Tomkilmore » 08 Sep 2018, 17:57

:ak47
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Re: crossfall

Postby sacharlie » 08 Sep 2018, 19:05

Burgerman wrote:So sacharlie what about this?

sacharlie wrote:
Petro is convenient but over here limits where you can use it. All the government parks allow only electric mobility aids.




WRONG!!!! Check the ADA rules - definitely apply since you give your location as Texas, and last I heard they haven't managed to secede yet... :mrgreen:

The ADA guidelines specifically say that ANY form of mobility aid, including petroleum powered, must be allowed unless there are specific reasons not to, i.e. petro isn't allowed indoors for safety reasons. They can also prohibit dual track vehicles (including regular power chairs) on single track trails if the trail would be damaged.... They DO allow "reasonable" rules about use, for instance restricting you to walking speeds in pedestrian areas, etc....

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That would be great if the ADA overrode the Texas law. If you or the goose run across a link please post it.
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Re: crossfall

Postby Burgerman » 08 Sep 2018, 20:00

https://adata.org/publication/disability-law-handbook

It would seem that it always overrules state laws in the USA.
If there is a disagreement between the two, you have the right to take your state to court for them to be made to correct the situation. And add your di-lithium xstals and clockwork, and compressed air power to the battery stipulation... Or wait while they try and prosecute and do it then. Same as always. They wont bother you.
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Re: crossfall

Postby sacharlie » 08 Sep 2018, 20:40

It seems you would like to read that law as saying because you have a disability you are allowed to drive your van on pedestrian sidewalks.
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Re: crossfall

Postby Burgerman » 08 Sep 2018, 22:40

No I am just reading the rules written there! Globally intended US civil rights laws must take priority over a state law where there is any disagreement? Or the seperate states hove more power than the central government? Dont ask me I dont live there, but that is what it says. And presumably what exgoose means.

WRONG!!!! Check the ADA rules - definitely apply since you give your location as Texas, and last I heard they haven't managed to secede yet... :mrgreen:

The ADA guidelines specifically say that ANY form of mobility aid, including petroleum powered, must be allowed unless there are specific reasons not to, i.e. petro isn't allowed indoors for safety reasons. They can also prohibit dual track vehicles (including regular power chairs) on single track trails if the trail would be damaged.... They DO allow "reasonable" rules about use, for instance restricting you to walking speeds in pedestrian areas, etc....

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Re: crossfall

Postby sacharlie » 08 Sep 2018, 22:57

I read the law regarding "pedestrian areas" to only allow battery power, 3 or 4 wheels, not to exceed 8mph. Here right now in San Antonio they rent 2 wheel electric scooters in downtown and they are not allowed on sidewalks. Horses and ATVS are not allowed on sidewalks either, disabled or not.
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Re: crossfall

Postby sacharlie » 08 Sep 2018, 23:02

Also in Texas ATVs are not street legal. Looking at the ADA rule makes me wonder. With that in mind I would believe people would be riding them all over here claiming they are disabaled but that has not happened.
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Re: crossfall

Postby Burgerman » 08 Sep 2018, 23:49

Also in Texas ATVs are not street legal. Looking at the ADA rule makes me wonder. With that in mind I would believe people would be riding them all over here claiming they are disabaled but that has not happened.


Because most are too dumb to figure it out and would get a ticket anyway since they plainly are not disabled. They are illegal here on roads or footpaths too. But if you are disabled, restrict to 8mph or have a means of telling the speed, they are not "illegal" as such. The cops just scratch heads. Not everything fits in a box.
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Re: crossfall

Postby mickeymonk » 09 Sep 2018, 00:06

Burgerman wrote:
Also in Texas ATVs are not street legal.


They are illegal here on roads or footpaths too. But if you are disabled, restrict to 8mph or have a means of telling the speed, they are not "illegal" as such. The cops just scratch heads. Not everything fits in a box.


ATVs (quads) are certainly not illegal on UK roads. With the correct lights they can be registered and ridden on our roads, without a crash helmet!

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Re: crossfall

Postby Burgerman » 09 Sep 2018, 01:03

Heres some news for you. A road legal quad is a vehicle that conforms to a specific vehicle type. Because it was manufactured to conform to the rules to make it legal for a specific "type".As such the thing gets a type approval stamp at the port of entry, or at the factory its made at pushed into the crate, and the required markings on a chassis plate as well as an initial registration document. Then it conforms, and is taxed as that "class" of vehicle. So it can legally be ridden on the road, as long as its brakes, tyres, lighting, etc etc conform. Then if you are stopped the cops know what class/type it is, and can then do such things as measure the height of the lights above ground, etc.

If however you take a dump truck off a building site, or a race go cart on slicks, or a off road quad with no front brakes, lights, and not for highway tyres and drive THAT on the road theres a bit of a problem. And its very hard for them to prosecute you. Because under the law they need to tell the court what TYPE (no type approval) and what specific laws you were breaking. So slick tyres? Number of wheels? Loud exhaust? Lights? What wattage headlamp for eg is required? Does it need indicators? Are rear brake only OK? Well to decide these things, and decide if you need a licence, and what GROUPS on your licence apply, or insurance etc they need to first look at its VIN plate to identify type. But it was never type approved and so it doesent have one. They get all angry and stuff but unless they can prove that you are using it as a regular road vehicle rather than going from one building site to another for eg, theres nothing much they can do. Its not that its not legal. Or illegal. Its just not covered. A grey area. There was a case near me here where a guy lost his driving licence because of drink. So he took to using a goped. The police stopped him, took it away and the court extended his ban, and fined him. A few weeks later after he got a solicitor the judge handed the goped back, and refunded his fine and removed the ban extension since under the law it wasnt a motor vehicle. Regardless of its 22cc engine as it wasnt designated as any road vehicle type.

I had a similar argument with a motorway cop 20 years ago when I took a race bike out of my trailer on the motorway to repair a puncture. Swap wheel. Cops appeared and insisted that the race bike needed insurance and MOT and treaded road tyres and lights and a number plate etc to be parked on the hard shoulder. They also ask me to produce a licence, insurance and valid MOT. The court saw it very differently. It wasnt a road vehicle, wasnt type approved. So they threw it out. Had I been riding it, this would have been no different as long as it wasnt regularly used for transporting me as a normal bike would.
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Re: crossfall

Postby Burgerman » 09 Sep 2018, 01:30

Also, if you have a non road legal quad, such as a race one with no front brakes, slicks, and no lights, no diff, thats all angry, or any quad at all in fact that you use for agricultural work (when you get some more hint!), you can register it as an agricultural vehicle quite legitimately.

Non of the road rules then apply, you do not need MOT's, because they wouldnt even get one when new, or insurance but its wise, speedometers, road legal tyres, front brakes etc. This can also be used on the road... But it must be registered as agricultural use as its main use, and display number plates and better still theres no road tax to pay either! And only really one rule, it must display a white front, and red rear light if used after dusk. Cheap push bike ones are legal if you go at very slow speed. Also, I think no licence needed? Since its a farming vehicle. Not sure. And you can drive a quad from 16 if disabled.

Heres a few rules. https://www.gov.uk/quad-bikes-the-rules

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/agricultura ... s-vehicles
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Re: crossfall

Postby mickeymonk » 09 Sep 2018, 10:38

So you confirm an ATV (quad) can be ridden on UK roads! :thumbup:


Burgerman wrote: And only really one rule, it must display a white front, and red rear light if used after dusk.


Just one thing, I belive, there is no stipulation for a white light up front. The law, only states it must not be red. Unless you know otherwise. :worship ;) ;) ;)
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Re: crossfall

Postby Burgerman » 09 Sep 2018, 10:52

Definitely white. But no lights need be fitted at all if used only in daylight hours and registered as a agricutural tool.
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Re: crossfall

Postby MichaelB » 09 Sep 2018, 14:59

Reading the Class 3 requirements it looks like a quad/atv doesn't comply on weight and width but there again most wheelchairs don't comply on weight. I'm wondering if the 85cm width is linked to gates and footpath widths?
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Re: crossfall

Postby Burgerman » 09 Sep 2018, 15:06

If you fit narrower tyres to a smaller quad it complies to weight and width. A 125cc pertrol engine is much lighter than a pair of grp24 batteries.
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Re: crossfall

Postby MichaelB » 09 Sep 2018, 17:03

Just looking at different options, some with auto gearbox, speed restrictor (not known whether you can set your own) and Yamaha have an electric steering option, that might make control with a joystick possible. You just need to find an atv with all those features. It wouldn't solve the problem of red socks walkers and forestry commission staff questioning the use though. You probably would need something from DVLA saying that it was an invalid carriage. With the Boma I get stopped quite often but only because people are interested to know how I drive it and where am I going.
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Re: crossfall

Postby Burgerman » 09 Sep 2018, 17:57

You probably would need something from DVLA saying that it was an invalid carriage.


Not their job. They will just point you to the rules. Stick a large disabled badge on it and they cant and wont do a thing.
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Re: crossfall

Postby MichaelB » 09 Sep 2018, 18:51

Burgerman wrote:
You probably would need something from DVLA saying that it was an invalid carriage.


Not their job. They will just point you to the rules. Stick a large disabled badge on it and they cant and wont do a thing.


My experience with forestry commission is that they will pass the onus to you to show it complies. They are one of the most difficult to deal with. We do a lot of marketing work using their land and they insist photographers have PL insurance and they check. You can always avoid going on their land though :) I don't have that option, have to be in forests to do my job. Most other land owners won't care unless you start digging up a footpath. Now all I need is the Yamaha electric steering system in a small 125cc automatic atv.
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Re: crossfall

Postby Burgerman » 09 Sep 2018, 19:38

It doesent have to have a thing to do with the forestry commission. As long as its some agricultural use. Do you have a freind with a farm or a large garden? Or start a one man band industrial fencing and hedging company. Or at least a letter heading... Be creative. :fencing
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Re: crossfall

Postby MichaelB » 10 Sep 2018, 12:25

Burgerman wrote:It doesent have to have a thing to do with the forestry commission. As long as its some agricultural use. Do you have a freind with a farm or a large garden? Or start a one man band industrial fencing and hedging company. Or at least a letter heading... Be creative. :fencing


Unfortunately I have to work on forestry commission land, can't avoid that it is what pays the bills and I can guarantee that using a petrol quad would be checked out by them. They already have problems with other vehicle use. I'd need a friend with some large amount of land, at the moment I have almost all of the Lake District to enjoy :)

One to think about for now the Boma will suffice.
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Re: crossfall

Postby popschief » 10 Sep 2018, 17:09

My experience with forestry commission is that they will pass the onus to you to show it complies. They are one of the most difficult to deal with.

There's usually a big sign "WELCOME TO YOUR PUBLIC LANDS" They should add at the bottom, 'KEEP OUT

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Re: crossfall

Postby MichaelB » 10 Sep 2018, 17:17

popschief wrote:My experience with forestry commission is that they will pass the onus to you to show it complies. They are one of the most difficult to deal with.

There's usually a big sign "WELCOME TO YOUR PUBLIC LANDS" They should add at the bottom, 'KEEP OUT

bp


They want you in to collect the car parking charge, then only want you on the marked trails, don't go "off piste"!
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Re: crossfall

Postby ex-Gooserider » 11 Sep 2018, 02:10

Don't know about the rest of the world, but the ADA rules (US FEDERAL law, automatically overrides any State law, even in Texas) don't place any maximum speed limit on vehicles used for mobility access, they just allow 'reasonable' restrictions on the speed of OPERATION when used in an area where they would normally not be allowed... In other words, you are perfectly legal to drive an ATV that CAN do 100mph as long as you only USE it at the speed limit given for the area... Driving on the streets is probably a bit iffier, however I suspect that as long as you limit to pedestrian or possibly human-powered vehicle speeds, they couldn't require a drivers license.... (I haven't checked....)

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MichaelB wrote:
Burgerman wrote:
Because you can't use a petrol powered vehicle on footpaths and bridleways legally


Wrong. The law does not specify power source here or in the US.

There is a place for battery power off road wheelchair/buggies but they need to be within a certain size or you might as well buy an atv/quad


Size is not determined by power source. And yes you may as well buy any of the thousands of off road buggies with ic power as they are more capable and cheaper!


OK, the law says 8 mph so you would need to restrict your petrol powered atv to that, you would then have to drive a reasonable size vehicle on a public road with a top speed of 8mph as it won't fit on a pavement. Add in the complication of how a high level quad can actually drive and control system needed and you are into some serious modifications. Then consider how you transfer if you use a portable hoist and adapt seating with Roho/Jay back. It can be done but you would still get stuck at the first footpath gate. Size isn't determined by power source, intended use is the most important consideration.
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Re: crossfall

Postby MichaelB » 11 Sep 2018, 14:55

The UK does have speed restrictions of 8 mph. One weird bit of wording when using a class 3 (8mph) it is restricted to 4mph "off road" my assumption is that this means a footpath or pavement not off road as in dirt/mud tracks.
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