Bounder Chair - 100ah lithium

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Bounder Chair - 100ah lithium

Postby expresso » 27 Aug 2018, 18:20

this is the response i got back from Bounder - i asked about the batteries -

Hi Claudio,

David forwarded me your email so I can answer your questions. We are using LifePO4 chemistry in our battery and have been offering our Battery for almost 6 years. Our original batteries are still in operation.

We have a BMS designed specifically for user with the high amp surges required by the power wheelchair. You are correct, that the BMS is usually the weakest link, but ours has proved to be very robust. The battery we provide is built to our specs, it is in essence our battery.
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Re: Bounder Chair - 100ah lithium

Postby Burgerman » 27 Aug 2018, 18:33

So still no info them then...

Cell type, make, capacity, C rate, Ah, and they are using a higher amp BMS that will then do absolutely nothing and so wont cut out etc. So it need not exist. And it will still make a pigs earout of the charging and balance with too low current and bounce the high cells up and down for hours! And might burn your house down... :argument
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Re: Bounder Chair - 100ah lithium

Postby expresso » 27 Aug 2018, 18:49

i asked about the Cells and BMS etc, - more info. - lets see what i will get back in response - i dont think i will get all the info. but i asked - if a BMS goes haywire for some reason - it should trip the breaker and stop it in its tracks ? safely -

this is how all manufacturers will do if they switch over to lithium at some point - there is no way they will make it without a BMS for the avg. plug and play user which is what the goal is and of course to protect there batteries from users who will not charge correctly or over discharge them and then complain etc, warranty

so no matter what - a BMS will always be used - if getting them this way on a chair - if they saying 6 years and no issues - i would have to think its an robust unit - now if it bounces the cells or what ever else - nothing can be done about it - if i had to pay out of pocket - i would have built it myself - but it was covered by insurance - cant complain :D
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Re: Bounder Chair - 100ah lithium

Postby expresso » 27 Aug 2018, 19:13

Cant share any specs or more details on batteries BMS - i figured that - but cant hurt to ask -
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Re: Bounder Chair - 100ah lithium

Postby Burgerman » 27 Aug 2018, 20:21

i asked about the Cells and BMS etc, - more info. - lets see what i will get back in response - i dont think i will get all the info. but i asked - if a BMS goes haywire for some reason - it should trip the breaker and stop it in its tracks ? safely -


No. Thats the problem. Something goes wrong with the BMS mosfets as its balancing for eg, or at any time, and it shorts out a balance wire which melts insulation, across a couple more, and they all start shorting together and we have a fire. Its not common, but its just one reason that there are so many reports of fires with ev bikes and e cars etc. Or while charging it fails and allows it to over volt a cell, or a pack for hours and heats everything up until the electrolyte boils and its flammable. So any bms error can ignite the thing like a frying pan fire while unattended. Thats why that ev expert that builds EV cars for his customers wont let any vehicle with a BMS into his workshop. But as you say thats exactly what the manufacturers will do.

Thats why we get exploding laptops... And drills. And why all those kids hoverboard balance things were catching fire. The other thing that they will do is have inadequate capacity. So between the BMS charge issues, and the too low capacity on most products, the batteries get a hard time and are discharged heavily in C rate and depth of discharge so will give problems sooner rather than later. And then get an undesereved bad reputation. And none of the true benefits such as longevity and huge range that they promise will be realised. 100Ah is just about enough though even though its now possible to get 180Ah in that space. Just the bms to ruin the job!

You basically swap reliability and fire risk, and shorter a service life, and less range for the dubious convinience of a simple dumb charger. Which you have no means of monitoring or understanding if its working as it should. Seen too many BMS problems! Even my mower is always needing a new BMS... And battery.

Advantage of the PL8 is, as you know, information about whats actually happening. Rapid 1A balancing in smooth proportional way accurate to 3mV, starting at the point you tell it, and total user settings and custom control to ensure healthy cells stay healthy! And it allows you to see problems as they occur. For eg you know your cell 3 is low on capacity. And to be able charge at 40A if in a hurry, or charge from another chair, or a car. And charge anything else you may have! You need to plug both in. But the PL8 needs two presses...

But everyone KNOWS a bms is essential!!! Esp the battery EXPERTS that the manufacturers go to. :lol:

Heres a typical BMS for 180A so as long as it doesent fail it will work on a chair (by never actually tripping or doing ANYTHING! But this is typical. It bounces cells up to 3.800v before repeatedly disconnecting the charger... Over and over. Look at its specs. https://www.aliexpress.com/item/8S-200A ... 75898.html
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Re: Bounder Chair - 100ah lithium

Postby expresso » 27 Aug 2018, 20:43

well what can you do - - cant have it all - i get what your saying - - this is how it will be - its free - and i am not touching it unless of course i have no choice - i am thinking of an ADD ON also because 100ah isnt enough for me actually on long rides -

if i had to pay out of pocket - then i would just take the lead and do it myself - if they been using them for 6 years now - cant be too bad overall - and i am 99 percent sure the Anderson is a SB120 connector - not sure what wire size they are using but that can hold up to a 2AWG - which is pretty huge -

this is good so i can stick a 6AWG and and 8AWG in one connector for my ADD ON cable - from the pictures - the wiring does look pretty huge in thickness and if they are using a SB120 - it would be at least a 6AWG wire - which is larger than the 8AWG i used in my chair. -

it can be possiable that they are using a very robust BMS setup - ? those EV bikes - they are using crappy cheap stuff to begin with - and most of them are pretty much dumb ass - - and thats coming from me who is not an expert but can figure it out somewhat and notice when they complain about there stuff - and how they use it etc, - even someone like me would know now - they are doing stupid things and then wonder why it craps out on them.

in a perfect setup - NO BMS is best - but forget about it with wheelchairs from the manufacturers - if they offer lithium - it will all have a BMS - you can take it or leave it - if you can get it covered from insurance dont see why not take it - worse case you can always redo it down the line - we will find out with me
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Re: Bounder Chair - 100ah lithium

Postby Burgerman » 27 Aug 2018, 20:46

Fair enough.

Heres a typical BMS spec. Note that it drains cell 1 all the time even when unused.
Take a careful look at the voltages on 3 below... :cussing

Every time a cell hits 3.80V for 1.2 seconds, it disconnects the charger totally while it pulls that cell down again to 3.65V. And its balance current is a typical 70mA (the PL8 is 1000mA balance some 14x better, and it maintains the correct exact 3.550 voltage we choose smoothly as it balances.) So the BMS will take 15 TIMES longer to balance this way and repeatedly reach 3.80V over and over for ever.

So it bounces a cell up to 3.8V and then back down to the "correct" (too high) 3.65V for hours and hours and even days... Great method of charging no?
All BMS work this way. :lol: Bye bye battery...

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Re: Bounder Chair - 100ah lithium

Postby expresso » 27 Aug 2018, 20:47

Range is another - 55 miles was stated and was rode in real life use before it reached that range - that will depend on my factors - i dont feel it will reach that high - but 40 it can do or 45 maybe - Gearless - maybe can help with range -

i know i seen those specs all the time from the very start when Shirley got me the first BMS to use - but his at least was only for charging balancing i believe and even that i noticed on the PL 8 how not good it was compared to without - so i never used afterwards - two weeks in use - before going to the PL 8 and never looked back

they will all charge up to 29.2V at least the ones they will use - it is what it is :) and it was Free to me - so we shall see how good or long they last - i really wont know anyway - no way to check or monitor it on the PL 8 - and if i add an ADD ON - they will last a long time for me that way - by the time i notice a big enough change in range - can be over 5 years easy - if not more -

it wont be used all year - summer is the hard months - and wont use each day - can use other chairs sometimes - in the kind of use - with an ADD ON - as long as BMS dosnt crap out - will last the life of the chair or maybe 10 years - or they can be real bad and last 2 years - who knows - i was told 6 years in production and they are still going strong after 6 years - you can believe it or not - i feel they are good guys and honest to the best they can be - i may not believe everything of course - when it comes to batteries - either they done know for sure and or cant say for real - which is the case

i am just happy to be getting it - i would have taken it without if i didnt get it with lithium - i was denied at first - the chair itself and then the lithium - and then i got them both etc, so cant complain - its all new to everyone across the board vendors etc, - at least i have a little experience now with lithium stuff
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Re: Bounder Chair - 100ah lithium

Postby Burgerman » 27 Aug 2018, 21:13

Well at least when it fails its their problem! And its way better than you will see from the likes of pride or any big manufacturer.

What would you do if you saw the PL8 repeatedly sending the full cells to 3.8V for a day? :clap

Heres the orange bits to AVOID with lead, and lifepo4 if you want them to survive a long time.
Remember 3.500V is 100% full. Charging to 3.550 speeds it up.
Higher than this is OVER 100% so we shouldnt do it! More voltage causes lithium plating, which is not reversable so shortens life:
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Re: Bounder Chair - 100ah lithium

Postby expresso » 27 Aug 2018, 21:31

yes thats true - if its under warranty - they have to deal with it - if its not - then insurance does - so one way or another it will get taken care of - unless of course they just want to get me another chair instead -- i take it with lead and redo it both :thumbup:

i would be concered if it was overcharging etc, daily that - but its better than any other manufacture like you said - only other chair was interested in was another quickie 646se if not this one - i did like the V4 chair - but speed was a big hit for me - i may be regretting getting the top speed when i do hills etc,
but i am sure will love it flat out which is alot of my riding anyway -

i am in NYC - alot of hills also here and there - but well see how bad it is - if its really that bad - i can always swap out the chain set and reduce speed - thats what i love about it - your not locked in with a speed motor etc, - swap out different chain sets and i can get tons of bottom end and still have a 9 mph speed or go even lower to 6 or 7.5 - or 10 -

at least theres options - i have the slowest chair now at 8 to 8.5 on the P222se - i feel it when i use it - its Ok and comfortable also after a while you get used to it - then i can do 10 with the 646se - now this will be the top speed chair if i want to have fun on long trips long runs of Open road - no cars - some bikes and people but its a larger road i can open it up - :D
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Re: Bounder Chair - 100ah lithium

Postby Burgerman » 27 Aug 2018, 21:37

i may be regretting getting the top speed when i do hills etc,
but i am sure will love it flat out which is alot of my riding anyway -


I am absolutely positive you will regret it.
Its not just hills, but zero speed turns, or accurate control. It will feel sluggish and weak like its joystick is connected by rubber bands. At least it will if its programmed like this so it responds. viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8035

I would hate it. Same reason 8mph sends me very mad! :fencing No response!
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Re: Bounder Chair - 100ah lithium

Postby expresso » 27 Aug 2018, 22:15

i know how you feel about it - BUT i dont think i be - Maybe on hills a bit - because i do feel it on hills now also - but even then i am faster going up hills even when its sluggish compared to other chairs with lead - so it may feel slow to me but i am still doing about 7 up a hill where most chairs dont do 7 on flat ground

i remember you telling me this when i first joined here about 9 years ago when i was looking to go to 8.5 from my first chair which i use indoor now at 6.5 - and i dont feel it like you say - i feel fine and snappy - aggressive if i want to be etc, - i cant say how i will feel with the bounder now - its the fastest chair from a manufacture you can get - - hey i take it - plus the beauty is - your not locked in to the speed if its really that bad for me -

i call them - order the chain set for a lower speed and have a tech swap it out - not a big deal - the options to do that is great and no other brand offers this - your locked in with the speed you get - and for most its very slow speeds - i cant do that slow - city here - now if doing real off road riding - thats a different story -

i may not want to do this speed off road - they offer a off road package at up to 7.5 - which is decent for off road i think - i think i be fine - i the chair i demoed which didnt have a clue what speed it was - was fine in central park a few hills - maybe i was just excited who knows - i shall find out - i hope i can make a few good runs with it this year before winter hits

i am about half your size BM - and i dont program as aggressive as you do - the more i look over the chair pictures - i more i like it - its not as bad as i first imagined - and dosnt stick out in the back any more than my P222se chair does - with a backpack there it would even it out and not as noticable - the group 27 battery option or the 48V option would stick out more and thats the imagine you have in your head -

thats another good thing about the bounder - NOW lets say i went nuts and wanted to do a 48V system - i can do it - plug and plug - i most likely wont - because of the costs but its an option that can be done easily - just need a new JS and PM from them - and of course make a 48V pack - lower the chain set to 7.5 and get tons of low end and 15mph top -

the fact thats its an option and plug and play is great - not limited to what you get from the start- no other company does this or offers this kind of custom options - hey like it or not - you have them give them credit
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Re: Bounder Chair - 100ah lithium

Postby Gnomatic » 27 Aug 2018, 22:41

I recently got demo two of their chairs. One set up to go about 7 miles an hour in the other 12 or so. I'm about 220 pounds and both chairs had seating options like tilt and recline etc. so adding even more weight. The fast one was definitely more sluggish from stall. You had to 'fight' to turn it with the joystick. It was fast on the top end, which is nice. However I preferred the six or 7 mile an hour chair, as it didn't struggle to climb over tree roots and turns and maneuvers more effortlessly.

All in all I was happy I got the demo. I thought the chairs look better in person than in most photographs I've seen. They certainly seem robust. One nice thing is that Claudio or somebody getting one doesn't like the speed is just sprocket change to go faster slower increase or decrease power. I
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Re: Bounder Chair - 100ah lithium

Postby expresso » 27 Aug 2018, 22:45

http://www.evlithium.com/LiFePO4-Battery/450.html

just looking this over - realized 8 of them would fit - in group 24 case - if anyone interested - 125ah total wont be too bad either -
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Re: Bounder Chair - 100ah lithium

Postby Burgerman » 27 Aug 2018, 23:07

255 X 40 X 170 TALL?


So 2 of,

255 with 5mm spare
40 x 4 is 160 with 10mm spare
and 170 tall with quite a bit wasted to the top?

Will work but I think the 90Ah x 16 cells giving 180Ah 24V is better.
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Re: Bounder Chair - 100ah lithium

Postby expresso » 27 Aug 2018, 23:45

yes 90ah better of course - but its nice to see that a 125ah cell can fit - where not long ago it was a struggle - this would be simple easy to make - just 8 cells

cost can be a factor also - thats also for the 90ah cells if you need or want 16 of them which is what we want :)

Do you have a link to the 90ah Cells your interested in that will fit ? -- just curious to check them out -
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Re: Bounder Chair - 100ah lithium

Postby Burgerman » 28 Aug 2018, 00:17

Shirley has them on a list here somewhere.

130 x 30 x 200 90Ah

Also these http://www.evlithium.com/LiFePO4-Battery/472.html
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Re: Bounder Chair - 100ah lithium

Postby hobie1dog » 28 Aug 2018, 01:47

I want some one to get the 200Ah batteries and do a build with just using 8 of them.

So expresso, you are getting Medicare to get a Bounder? I was told that it was not on the list of approved chairs.
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Re: Bounder Chair - 100ah lithium

Postby expresso » 28 Aug 2018, 01:54

hi - yes i managed to get it approved - but its not as simple as it sounds - but dont worry - they now make a Medicare approved bounder called 300M

group 3 - you can now get that model with no problems -

doing a 200ah pack is the same as doin a 60ah pack - - same idea - with 8 cells - i dont know of any 200ah Cell that would fit in a Chair - but they are getting better - 90ah seems to be the most that can fit 16 of them - all depending on your chair space etc,
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Re: Bounder Chair - 100ah lithium

Postby shirley_hkg » 28 Aug 2018, 02:19

hobie1dog wrote:I want some one to get the 200Ah batteries and do a build with just using 8 of them.


It is possible, if kept posted here , and have already been done .

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7766&hilit=105Ah+cell&start=210
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Re: Bounder Chair - 100ah lithium

Postby expresso » 30 Aug 2018, 00:14

BM - would this be Ok for chain lube ?

https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B00230KKJQ/ ... _lig_dp_it

or should i just stick with the cleaner and Wax - chain brush without adding any lube at all ?
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Re: Bounder Chair - 100ah lithium

Postby Burgerman » 30 Aug 2018, 01:09

You cant get better. Must be cleaned well with a solvent first.
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Re: Bounder Chair - 100ah lithium

Postby Burgerman » 30 Aug 2018, 01:10

The wax IS the lube...
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Re: Bounder Chair - 100ah lithium

Postby expresso » 30 Aug 2018, 01:22

https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B000WKATCM/ ... _lig_dp_it

this one they say is great - but can discolor the paint etc, -

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B003OBM5EQ/?c ... _lig_dp_it

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001B0VDC2/?c ... _lig_dp_it

so many - hard to pick one - if i can find one that wont discolor anything just in case -

the wax spray is fine - its the cleaner - would like it to be safe to use if it falls on the chair frame paint etc, and other parts
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Re: Bounder Chair - 100ah lithium

Postby Burgerman » 30 Aug 2018, 01:34

Paint brush, kerosene/parafin works properly. All those others just spray degreaser on and dont do much...

They are a truimph of marketing of function and brains.
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Re: Bounder Chair - 100ah lithium

Postby expresso » 30 Aug 2018, 01:39

i cant get crazy - :) i need a simple spray and wipe - and spray the wax - even that will be hard - but i think i can manage that much

i was just concerned if its too strong and discolors things - thats my concern - so was looking for some that dont do that -

not sure if the dupont one was safer in that area - vs the other which everyone swears by and the pictures show it - very very clean and shiny
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Re: Bounder Chair - 100ah lithium

Postby Burgerman » 30 Aug 2018, 02:33

Neither the wax or pj1 will stick and stay on properly if not thoroughly cleaned (degreased).

And any dirt remaining inside the rollers/pins is then mixed with the new wax/pj1 lube to make a nice grinding paste! So if you want to make the chains really last then its essential to get all the old lube, dust etc off/out of the chain.

Of course you could just spray a bit lube on now and again and hope for the best. What difference will it make? Probably not much at the speeds we go! And you are not paying for repairs anyway... So its a matter of doing it because you care or not! :hammer :shifty:
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Re: Bounder Chair - 100ah lithium

Postby expresso » 30 Aug 2018, 02:47

yes true - not paying but i like to try to keep it working best i can - less to deal with the repairs and the whole process - i figure the best i can keep it - better for me when riding far etc,
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Re: Bounder Chair - 100ah lithium

Postby rollingcowboy » 30 Aug 2018, 07:16

expesso, I look forward to read your report(s) on real-world use of the new chair.
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Re: Bounder Chair - 100ah lithium

Postby rollingcowboy » 30 Aug 2018, 07:16

expesso, I look forward to read your report(s) on real-world use of the new chair.
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