Personal Wheelchair Budgets

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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 15 Jul 2019, 11:35

Send them a solicitors letter by recorded delivery to the hispital admins, and wcs, explaining that they have refused your legitimate legal rights, explain what they are, and send them a copy of the bill for your new chair, deposit paid giving 28 days to pay. Send your personal evaluation/assessement giving clear reasons why you required THAT specific chair.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby woodygb » 15 Jul 2019, 13:01

Question...What effect ...if any ...does acquiring a P.W.B have on W.C.S ?
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby wheelie junkie » 15 Jul 2019, 13:30

woodygb wrote:Question...What effect ...if any ...does acquiring a P.W.B have on W.C.S ?


Potentially more cost if they give you the correct budget and reduction in business with existing suppliers although both of these are actually CCG problems, WCS should just agree a chair and spec then pass to CCG to source or provide a PWB. The problem is they don't want to give the retail price as they buy at a much lower price.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 15 Jul 2019, 13:43

But so can you. And it gives you more options and choices.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby greybeard » 15 Jul 2019, 13:47

woodygb wrote:Question...What effect ...if any ...does acquiring a P.W.B have on W.C.S ?


No more back-handers?
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby iainsherriff » 15 Jul 2019, 18:24

Burgerman wrote:Send them a solicitors letter by recorded delivery to the hispital admins, and wcs, explaining that they have refused your legitimate legal rights, explain what they are, and send them a copy of the bill for your new chair, deposit paid giving 28 days to pay. Send your personal evaluation/assessement giving clear reasons why you required THAT specific chair.

At this stage I am using the "PWB card" as a club to push them into action (ANY action)

I did actually get a call back but missed it as I was bathing Matt so that is progress I will call again tomorrow
Matt (son) is chair user.
MS fairly advanced
Quickie Salsa Mini2 for indoors
TGA S4 for dog/kid walking
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby wheelie junkie » 16 Jul 2019, 11:29

Burgerman wrote:But so can you. And it gives you more options and choices.


It should not be up to the person getting the PWB to have to know how to get a discount, not everyone can do this.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 16 Jul 2019, 12:09

Why not? Thats how a free market works. Buy a ew car? I got 17.5% off the last one.

Buy a new chair? I got at least 4 emails offering me 25% and no VAT on the Invacare chair. And I could have done exactly the same with the salsa, but bought that even cheaper. But I would need to kill you if I told you how.

Likewise I got the last 65 OLED with about 1k of its 3k price through a little disscusion. Just as the WCS do if THEY buy you your chair. Its always possible to do a deal. And thats exactly how things SHOULD be.

If everyone was to use a Wheelchair budget, that gives the buying power to the public. Suddenly the dealers, and manufactuerers are going to need to compete on everything. Service, reputation, quality of goods and features and also PRICE.

Thats the reason why the capitalist west works. And the socialist east didnt. Thats the reason the east germans got to live in depressing run down condumuniums and empty shops, crap goods if they were available, and a plastic/paper trabant 2 stroke with a 7 to 10 year wait and west germany had nice housing, and BMW, Mercedes, Porche, VW and plenty of affordable food and other good. Same with chairs... And any product in a free market.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby wheelie junkie » 16 Jul 2019, 13:32

Probably the most obvious reason is that not everyone has the mental ability to negotiate, disability takes many forms. I'll haggle on everything I buy, if you don't ask you won't get. Some brands can be awkward as they police dealers and shut off supply to any they find discounting, illegal to do but it happens. You can still get around it by finding the right dealer, I just bought an Apple iPad with 20% + discount, you can't get any discount from UK Apple dealers.

The East German model was interesting, crazy cars like the Wartburg 2 stroke which were really quick accelerating away from lights, every where else totally useless.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby greybeard » 23 Jul 2019, 11:36

Asked my local WCS why they only refer to the voucher scheme on their website.
This was their reply:

"Personal Wheelchair Budgets are not yet fully implemented by the NHS. The Dorset Wheelchair is working towards their implementation but until this time we are still operating the Voucher Scheme. Once this agreed it will be published on our website. In the meantime if there is anything we can do to assist you please do not hesitate to get in touch."


Not exactly rushing to comply with NHS England's directions dated 2016, are they?
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 23 Jul 2019, 11:55

No, so INSIST! The IDEA didnt even exist until I made it exist. You have got to push these socialist dinosaurs into action or they just plod along doing what they prefer/already do. Dont accept that as an answer. Point out that its not a nice idea, its your right as a tax payer for them to comply years ago...
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby wheelie junkie » 23 Jul 2019, 14:22

Point out that they have a legal obligation and their failure to implement is their responsibility not yours. Then find a solicitor who does pro bono work, ask the SIA then start legal action. They'll have a complaint procedure, ignore it saying that lack of a suitable chair is limiting your life. You can't wait for them, it is unreasonable for your life to be stopped whilst they sort out the bureaucracy.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby greybeard » 23 Jul 2019, 16:45

You're both correct, of course. However I'm not in the market for another chair yet and to be honest I doubt that I ever will be. I already have two good chairs, a couple of scooters and a small chair for getting around upstairs after I transfer off the stairlift. But never say never!

I was bored and just wanted to stir the pot a little. I'm not accepting their response and intend demanding to know why they are delaying implementation of what appears to be NHS England's clear policy decision. It may be because Dorset is said to have the highest population of pensioners, and consequently other benefits recipients, in the country so funds are pretty stretched..

No doubt it will escalate to the GCC, but I'm ready for that. Nothing like spreading a bit of joy, eh? :twisted: :fencing
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 23 Jul 2019, 17:07

The CCG is just a bunch of local doctors meeting around a table probably in a local hotel or some other pace, once or possibly twice a month for a couple of hours after work. A grand sounding name for very little.

It will get one sentence, if lucky, by a bunch of people that probably have no idea what they are on about. And the WCS will be asked to go and start researching or preparing it. As they should have done years ago. Which wont ever actually happen without a trip to court to concentrate their minds a little, away from meetings and coffee. You must pressure them into dealing with it instead of letting them endlessely put off the enevitable.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby terry2 » 24 Jul 2019, 08:19

I have heard nothing in 2 weeks.
Maybe that's a good sign. I did find out there is only 1 full time person in our WCS!
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Postby Burgerman » 24 Jul 2019, 09:35

Seriously?

If I had heard nothing in 48 hours I'd definitely be there in person asking why not, asking what they had done so far, what the delay was, why there WAS a delay, and calling everyone involved several times daily for a progress report. Especially whoever was in charge of your wheelchair services department, and the administrators of the hospital. If you dont harass them this way it goes in a draw. While someone goes for 14 days holiday. While they drink coffee and clock watch to go home. Then they leave it as long as poss, hoping it will go away.

I can order and get a chair to my specs in 2 weeks. Twice in 2017 and 2018. Rover tells me 4 weeks is normal from sunrise. So it may add 3 to 4 days if it needs to gothrough wheelchair services.

Tell them by recorded delivery letter that you will order the chair you assessed yourself for in 7 days if no result. And send them the bill with a solicitors letter giving 28 days to pay. And do it.

I did find out there is only 1 full time person in our WCS!


Again, they are making their issues YOUR problem!!! Its THEIR problem. If the NHS was not so increadibly inneficient and wasteful they would have enough staff.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby terry2 » 24 Jul 2019, 10:24

Ill call now.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 24 Jul 2019, 11:17

In may a freind who is also T4 paraplegic, said he needed a new mattress. And waiting to be assessed many weeks later!
So I took a look at mine. It was knackered. Its a 3/4 bed, pressure relieving mattress. An Invacare one. Its not pretty. So I ordered a new one. He is still waiting to be assessed. I am using mine right now. Those that do not allow the system to take advantage get what they are entitled to. Those that do, wait and get given excuses, and promises. It shouldnt be that way, but it is.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby CPguy » 24 Jul 2019, 13:23

@ terry2: and? Successful?

I do it similar to burgerman: I buy myself and send the paid invoice to my insurance. The self payment part I can put in my income tax declaration and I get even more money back. Fast and sexy! Life is so very short and I have no time to waste!
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby wheelie junkie » 24 Jul 2019, 16:57

From my experience WCS are the worst service I use, mine is understaffed as well, always someone off sick and OT's don't want to work there, understandable when everything comes down to cost and they have limited options dictated by the CCG. If you can't find other ways to fund a chair you have to keep pushing they won't be proactive you have to keep things moving along. My WCS is in the Disablement Serices unit, if you don't feel disabled going in you will after a meeting there.

I get almost everything that I need from other departments relatively quickly given that many decisions have to be approved by a CCG panel but the likes of my District Nurse team and OT know that I wouldn't ask if I didn't need and if I explain why it is urgent they'll try and help. I've found that building a good relationship really helps but you just have to do whatever you need to. You just have to make the system work for you if that means the occasional confrontation so be it.

You can get help, the likes of SIA will have a list of lawyers who will work without payment, if you need to get them involved although some CCG's don't respond to that!
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 24 Jul 2019, 17:18

This stuff is sacharlies dream.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby terry2 » 24 Jul 2019, 18:18

CPguy wrote:@ terry2: and? Successful?

I do it similar to burgerman: I buy myself and send the paid invoice to my insurance. The self payment part I can put in my income tax declaration and I get even more money back. Fast and sexy! Life is so very short and I have no time to waste!



They never called back.
As I said. There is only one lady and she was interviewing today.

The thing is. They know I can walk about 6ft with aides. Maybe this is why they're not in a hurry?
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby wheelie junkie » 24 Jul 2019, 18:20

Burgerman wrote:This stuff is sacharlies dream.



I'd think that most of us from the UK would be having the same dream if we lived in the US. You would need a good insurer to fund my healthcare bill. The NHS should give bills every time you use a service to make more aware of the overspend but that would just add even more unproductive paper pushing.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby wheelie junkie » 24 Jul 2019, 18:23

terry2 wrote:They never called back.
As I said. There is only one lady and she was interviewing today.

The thing is. They know I can walk about 6ft with aides. Maybe this is why they're not in a hurry?


I'm paralysed from the neck down, can't move anything other than my head and they don't contact me unless I push them. It is just part of the game.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 24 Jul 2019, 18:54

No they are not in a hurry because they are there for the wage. Not to please you. They have a small budget, and they are not a business in the real world. So they are not trying to compete. Not trying to please the customer. Not interested in the sale, or outcome. Only in doind as little as they can get away with, and in pushing things to the back of the desk and pretending it will go away. And in spending as little as possible. It works on 95% of people who wait months to years for a barely usable motorised deck chair, if they cant find any way out of getting you a powerchair at all. Mostly endless waiting and nobody ever calling you back, waiting lists etc are all just ploys to make you forget about it and give up.

This is the reality of socialist anything. Its why they would go bust if they were a businesscompeting in the outside world. Not to mention that most of them woudldnt survive 5 minutes in a real job. Your job unfortunately is to bully them into doing what they are paid to do. Or you will join the 95% while they go to assessements in pairs armed with a mountain of paper. If they are not in some meeting drinking coffee. Its all about hiding everything behind paperwork, assesements, hidden panels, etc etc. Jobs, big government, no action. You have to break a few things to get attention.
They never called back.
As I said. There is only one lady and she was interviewing today.

You expected they would? :lol: You have much to learn!!!
1. Thats not YOUR problem its theirs.
2. They are lying. Why not call you FIRST?

All just as expected. Excuses. Dont play their games!!!
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby terry2 » 26 Jul 2019, 15:16

I have heard back from them today yehhhhhhh
They are coming round with a sunrise medical rep.
The girl at reception said something about either a 200 or 400?

I couldn't get much out of her.
When the rep comes in he will see my Puma 40S.

So how do I proceed now to get the money and not a crap chair?
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 26 Jul 2019, 15:25

Read this thread. Again!!!

And by now he/they would already have a great idea of your personal requirements and why you need X specs in their hands. And it would be their job to try and explain why you were wrong which is hard to do with it already in black and white.

Buy now they are goin to assess you... And they already KNOW what chair they will assess you to need before they even arrive. Its all they know. The one they can supply as cheaply as poss. For whatever they can get away with. Unless they can find a reason not to do anything at all.

They will likely mean the cheap Q200 or Q400 indoor mainly chairs like this https://www.sunrisemedical.co.uk/q200r The 400 is mid drive.

Whats wrong with them? Nothing for indoor use other than too nose heavy and long. And inadequate torque or control on zero turns. Outdoors? Casters too small, no centre foortrest and if there was an option, no room to move the sat back due to casters. Front casters too close together for one if you intend it to steer by moving the seat back far enough. Low power controller, 2 pole motors, low speed, no lights, cheap joystick. It the modern equivelent of the spectra plus, or the basic 2 pole low speed salsa but with its casters closer together and a smaller 55Ah battery. From memory. If you want a Q anything its a Q700 (look it up, same site) and even then its still got to have the right options, such as 120 Rnet, 80Ah batts, advanced colour joystick, 4 pole, etc and it retains the close together casters. So no seat moving back is possible. But that doubles the price.

And they will carefully assess you, your home and suggest the same chair to everyone... Those 200/400 chairs are likely all they will supply now as they are doing the assessing. So if you want something different you will need a wheelchair budget. And buy/top up to get whatever you need/want. Thats why you shouldhave done things the opposite way around. Let them try to exlain why your assessement was wrong. Remember all chairs LOOK the same. Its the details and why those are important/essential to you, that makes the difference here.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby terry2 » 26 Jul 2019, 15:54

Burgerman wrote:Read this thread. Again!!!

And by now he/they would already have a great idea of your personal requirements and why you need X specs in their hands. And it would be their job to try and explain why you were wrong which is hard to do with it already in black and white.

Buy now they are goin to assess you... And they already KNOW what chair they will assess you to need before they even arrive. Its all they know. The one they can supply as cheaply as poss. For whatever they can get away with. Unless they can find a reason not to do anything at all.

They will likely mean the cheap Q200 or Q400 indoor mainly chairs like this https://www.sunrisemedical.co.uk/q200r The 400 is mid drive.

Whats wrong with them? Nothing for indoor use other than too nose heavy and long. And inadequate torque or control on zero turns. Outdoors? Casters too small, no centre foortrest and if there was an option, no room to move the sat back due to casters. Front casters too close together for one if you intend it to steer by moving the seat back far enough. Low power controller, 2 pole motors, low speed, no lights, cheap joystick. It the modern equivelent of the spectra plus, or the basic 2 pole low speed salsa but with its casters closer together and a smaller 55Ah battery. From memory. If you want a Q anything its a Q700 (look it up, same site) and even then its still got to have the right options, such as 120 Rnet, 80Ah batts, advanced colour joystick, 4 pole, etc and it retains the close together casters. So no seat moving back is possible. But that doubles the price.

And they will carefully assess you, your home and suggest the same chair to everyone... Those 200/400 chairs are likely all they will supply now as they are doing the assessing. So if you want something different you will need a wheelchair budget. And buy/top up to get whatever you need/want. Thats why you shouldhave done things the opposite way around. Let them try to exlain why your assessement was wrong. Remember all chairs LOOK the same. Its the details and why those are important/essential to you, that makes the difference here.



I will have to remind them. I use the chair for everything.
The Q200 is a waste of time. Looks like I will have to push for the money.

BM if they offer me a Q 200. Do I have to accept it or can I do something.
I did do what you all advised. 3 A4 paper sating(back and front) everything people mentioned and sent it to them and gave them another copy when they was here.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 26 Jul 2019, 16:07

Then you can show them on YOUR copy, all the reasons why the 200 is no use for you giving your clinical and lifestyle, reasons. Remind them that they are supposed to take into account your holistic needs as well as indoor clinical needs. Prepare a list of specs on the 200/400 chairs ready to give them. And poit to a chair that DOES meet these needs. Show them the exact bullet points on your personal assessements why 2 pole motors, or weedy controllers, or small casters, or swingaway foortrests, or lack of tilt, recline, power footrests, lift, small batteries etc etc wont work. And how the chair they are suggesting does not comply with your needs.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby foghornleghorn » 26 Jul 2019, 19:00

You've shot yourself in the nuts by talking to them about the Meyra which is totally unsuitable for indoors. To be honest without meaning to be insulting I'm curious about what you produced as a self assessment and how much of it they can attempt to discount as irrelevant.

Anything they provide you with will have to be usable inside your house.

The Q100 main selling point seems to be it's tiny footprint. However any advantage of being small at the points the wheels touch the floor is totally negated by only being available with swing away footrests making it overall the size of an aircraft carrier. Small combined with low weight (about 35kg less than your puma) will make it an unstable death-trap outdoors. Need lift or tilt for a clinical reason or even just to reach something? Unavailable on this chair.

The Q200 seems to be the same chair dressed up with outdoor wheels and tyres. All the same disadvantages as the Q100.

The Q400 will be harder to reject as it can be optioned up to the eyeballs to counteract everything already listed as a negative point. The one shown on the Sunrise website is a Q400M with no mention I can see of a Q400F or Q400R. If this is what they offer it really is going to be up to you to demonstrate why mid wheel drive is unsuitable. You could also try pricing up a Q400 to an equivalent specification of a Puma 40S and see if it turns out more expensive.

terry2 wrote:if they offer me a Q 200. Do I have to accept it or can I do something.

Don't accept anything unsuitable for your needs. Ebay always has listings for chairs that are 5 years old but look brand new and say they have only been used twice, there is a reason for that - they ARE 5 years old but have only been used twice. An unsuitable chair will make you more disabled than you already are. Takes very little use to find that out.

Edit//

The Sunrise Medical rep is NOT your friend - he is a salesman. Doesn't matter what cheerful nonsense he comes out with, it is his job to sell you the desire to take whatever he is offering.
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