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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby foghornleghorn » 05 Jun 2019, 10:33

terry2 wrote:Thanks Steve.
My doctor thought I was on the voucher system.

Wonder how much they will let me have using the voucher?
Or is it different from person to person?

Stop saying VOUCHER. You will give WCS a chance to palm you off with the absolute minimum contribution they can get away with.

Personal Wheelchair Budget. Personal Wheelchair Budget. Personal Wheelchair Budget. :thumbup:
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 05 Jun 2019, 10:35

Thanks Steve.
My doctor thought I was on the voucher system.

Wonder how much they will let me have using the voucher?
Or is it different from person to person?


They will 'assess' you to see what you need. The result will be a weedy 2 pole low power, 4mph, no lights chair with no seating options and small batteries, think spectra plus or worse. The will offer about half what it costs retail, (what they pay for it) as a voucher. Plus a cushion, and some for maintainance. Like a few hundred. The voucher does not give you freedom to buy from a discounted deal (I have had 25 and 30% offers online from the retail, with no VAT as well). It forces you to buy from their list of approved dealers, (think backhander) and an aproved list of chairs.

So its a waste of time. Assess yourself in detail, and if its less than 6 or 7 pages of factual detail and info you failed) showing why you need this or that option, and narrow down the chair you need for your LIFESTYLE, hobby, indoor and outdoor clinical and holistic needs. Include a prescrition form already filled in, and added up, with the right options ticked. If they offer anything else take apart the new chairs detail, explaining why that will not work for you.

And do the powerchair budget so you can buy from your choice of new, discounted, used, online, etc. And get two used or one discounted, etc. Its YOUR choice. Or use the money to build your own as I usually do. Although I bought a salsa cheap with all the right options last time... And made a few changes.
Also they can be persuaded that 3 years is a good replacement time if you are a heavy user that goes through chairs and batteries at a rate of knots. I do... :lol: All depends on your negotiating skills. If you are theresa may you will get about 1500 quid. I get about 7k every 3 years. They wont cover 6mph, etc. So I have to make up the difference. You can buy a chair for that (negotiate!).
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 05 Jun 2019, 10:45

Stop saying VOUCHER. You will give WCS a chance to palm you off with the absolute minimum contribution they can get away with.

Personal Wheelchair Budget. Personal Wheelchair Budget. Personal Wheelchair Budget. :thumbup:


Quite. I been doing that as a team of 1 on a pilot scheme since I was 51. Authorised and organised by the health secretaries PA at my house here. I am now almost 60. On my 3rd cheque. All designed to give the user CHOICE and flexibility, in my case to build my own chairs. So dont let them fob you off with safety bullshit either! They try to make up the rules as they go along. Thats NOT what the chief of the NHS intended at all. Or the health department.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby terry2 » 05 Jun 2019, 20:47

Burgerman wrote:
Thanks Steve.
My doctor thought I was on the voucher system.

Wonder how much they will let me have using the voucher?
Or is it different from person to person?


They will 'assess' you to see what you need. The result will be a weedy 2 pole low power, 4mph, no lights chair with no seating options and small batteries, think spectra plus or worse. The will offer about half what it costs retail, (what they pay for it) as a voucher. Plus a cushion, and some for maintainance. Like a few hundred. The voucher does not give you freedom to buy from a discounted deal (I have had 25 and 30% offers online from the retail, with no VAT as well). It forces you to buy from their list of approved dealers, (think backhander) and an aproved list of chairs.

So its a waste of time. Assess yourself in detail, and if its less than 6 or 7 pages of factual detail and info you failed) showing why you need this or that option, and narrow down the chair you need for your LIFESTYLE, hobby, indoor and outdoor clinical and holistic needs. Include a prescrition form already filled in, and added up, with the right options ticked. If they offer anything else take apart the new chairs detail, explaining why that will not work for you.

And do the powerchair budget so you can buy from your choice of new, discounted, used, online, etc. And get two used or one discounted, etc. Its YOUR choice. Or use the money to build your own as I usually do. Although I bought a salsa cheap with all the right options last time... And made a few changes.
Also they can be persuaded that 3 years is a good replacement time if you are a heavy user that goes through chairs and batteries at a rate of knots. I do... :lol: All depends on your negotiating skills. If you are theresa may you will get about 1500 quid. I get about 7k every 3 years. They wont cover 6mph, etc. So I have to make up the difference. You can buy a chair for that (negotiate!).



I am hoping they give some cash towards a Meyra Optimus 2 RS.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby steves1977uk » 05 Jun 2019, 22:30

I'd be very surprised if they did that Terry! Be prepared to fight your corner! :thumbup:

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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 06 Jun 2019, 01:10

A big, big argument is the only way. They have a yearly budget. The less they waste on you the more there is for them to keep paying wages and employing 3 people for every job and all those coffee and cake 'meetings. No sorry I mean jollies. Sorry, I mean training weekends. The ones where they learn how to avoid paying for anything and never getting back to you for years at a time. And you think I am joking.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby terry2 » 06 Jun 2019, 07:02

steves1977uk wrote:I'd be very surprised if they did that Terry! Be prepared to fight your corner! :thumbup:

Steve


I'm going to be like mike Tyson :D

Burgerman wrote:A big, big argument is the only way. They have a yearly budget. The less they waste on you the more there is for them to keep paying wages and employing 3 people for every job and all those coffee and cake 'meetings. No sorry I mean jollies. Sorry, I mean training weekends. The ones where they learn how to avoid paying for anything and never getting back to you for years at a time. And you think I am joking.



I was thinking of approaching it like this.

I had a new chair with 2 pole motors and it could not go up my ramp. Which is true.
I upgraded to 4 pole 8 mph because of the ramp and that I do long distance in my chair on the road 90% of the time. Which is also true.

I won't mention the new LifePO4 batteries. But I will say I get through 2 sets a year.

But if I can get the chair that I need for reasons I point out.
They won't need to buy me batteries any more. I will fit the Lifepo4 battery pack :)
They will never need to buy any motors for the new chair. The Meyra Optimus users a mobile buggy front motor for drive.
A friend of a friend who has one for the last 5 years said that the replacement motor was £900. But he has never needed to buy one.

So I will try to sell the idea that if they help me get what I want. I won't bother them again.
But if they don't I will need many £1,000s in replacement parts over the year.

Thoughts?
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby biscuit » 06 Jun 2019, 08:00

Hello terry2. I'd be surprised if that approach works. I imagine that in the NHS's self-image they don't see themselves as trying not to be bothered by you!

I imagine they would feel truly fulfilled when people bother them all the time and they go to a lot of effort to say it's impossible, and really regret that they are obliged to refuse.

The NHS individuals really want to help, the NHS system really wants them not to help.

So if you do what you suggested, I'd suggest that it might be more successful if you let the bean counters work out for themselves that your system is cheaper, rather than making it a selling point.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 06 Jun 2019, 09:12

The problem is that most of the planet dont do 'logic' or 'reason'. They use: 'repeat what I did last time'. And 'dont change stuff', and dont think, just go with what we were told in the training days. And dont spend money. And push responsibility for anything different up the chain.

You are wasting your time being logical or reasonable. They are both not at this level of thought. And in any case do not have the knowledge or power to comply.

You MUST assess yourself in detail explaining why x chair, x motor, x seating component, etc etc is essential and explain why. Because they do not understand chairs. Only seating. But even there they need a REASON to allow say a seat riser. Exlain that you cannot transfer to loilet, sofa, bed, other chairs as they are all at different heights. And you cannot reach stuff in your hobby/shopping/whatever you do.

Do the same with every component. I need tilt and recline because pressure sore prevention. And leg lift centre footrest to get leg high to stop legs swelling badly, and because I cannot empty a leg bag into a loo unless my leg is high enough to reach! Etc etc.. Big detailed 7 page document full of irrefutable FACTS. And a list of chairs that comply. In my case that narrowed it to 2 only. And that was the salsa with all the toys/4pole 120A etc. They will only pay for 4mph. But thats a programming issue. Although mine was PB so I just ordered 6 mph ...

Dont leave anything to discussion, dont allow them any escape route. Hit them with YOUR assessement FIRST. And stress the importance of PCB or them supplying your specified chair. You gota treat it like a solicitor in court. Go in all guns blazing, with a full complex detailed personal assessement. Get it signed by a couple of physios, doctor if needed. And include a fully filled in, and aded up PRESCRIPTION FORM. Then post it registered post to at least 6 people inc the hospital administration.

Then give it a week...

If no contact, send another to half a dozen places, telling them that you wil be contacting the papers, your soliciter, and your MP. Then wait for the phone to ring.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby terry2 » 06 Jun 2019, 09:36

biscuit wrote:Hello terry2. I'd be surprised if that approach works. I imagine that in the NHS's self-image they don't see themselves as trying not to be bothered by you!

I imagine they would feel truly fulfilled when people bother them all the time and they go to a lot of effort to say it's impossible, and really regret that they are obliged to refuse.

The NHS individuals really want to help, the NHS system really wants them not to help.

So if you do what you suggested, I'd suggest that it might be more successful if you let the bean counters work out for themselves that your system is cheaper, rather than making it a selling point.



Thank you.
I will keep that in mind. I'm practicing what I should say and not say to them :D

Burgerman wrote:The problem is that most of the planet dont do 'logic' or 'reason'. They use: 'repeat what I did last time'. And 'dont change stuff', and dont think, just go with what we were told in the training days. And dont spend money. And push responsibility for anything different up the chain.

You are wasting your time being logical or reasonable. They are both not at this level of thought. And in any case do not have the knowledge or power to comply.

You MUST assess yourself in detail explaining why x chair, x motor, x seating component, etc etc is essential and explain why. Because they do not understand chairs. Only seating. But even there they need a REASON to allow say a seat riser. Exlain that you cannot transfer to loilet, sofa, bed, other chairs as they are all at different heights. And you cannot reach stuff in your hobby/shopping/whatever you do.

Do the same with every component. I need tilt and recline because pressure sore prevention. And leg lift centre footrest to get leg high to stop legs swelling badly, and because I cannot empty a leg bag into a loo unless my leg is high enough to reach! Etc etc.. Big detailed 7 page document full of irrefutable FACTS. And a list of chairs that comply. In my case that narrowed it to 2 only. And that was the salsa with all the toys/4pole 120A etc. They will only pay for 4mph. But thats a programming issue. Although mine was PB so I just ordered 6 mph ...

Dont leave anything to discussion, dont allow them any escape route. Hit them with YOUR assessement FIRST. And stress the importance of PCB or them supplying your specified chair. You gota treat it like a solicitor in court. Go in all guns blazing, with a full complex detailed personal assessement. Get it signed by a couple of physios, doctor if needed. And include a fully filled in, and aded up PRESCRIPTION FORM. Then post it registered post to at least 6 people inc the hospital administration.

Then give it a week...

If no contact, send another to half a dozen places, telling them that you wil be contacting the papers, your soliciter, and your MP. Then wait for the phone to ring.


Thank you for the advice.

My doctor filled in a form(about 5 pages) and he has posted it.
He says it will be faster that way and the place I have to go to is only 5 mile from me.
So I will go there in my chair.

If they won't help with the chair I need\want.
I will ask them to pay for my motors when they fail. I would be happy with that.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 06 Jun 2019, 09:49

You give up too easily. Thats why they get away with it.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby LROBBINS » 06 Jun 2019, 11:41

I'll absolutely second what Burgerman has said. If you need anything more than their "one size fits all", YOU write the "assessment" (or letter of medical necessity as Blue Cross calls it) then have the physician attach an endorsement, or re-type the letter on his stationary and sign it, and get endorsements from as many "professionals" as you can arm twist into supporting you. It doesn't matter whether it's a government program or a private insurer - their mantra is "deny, deny, deny" so you have to not give them any room or excuses.

It often seems that the bigger the mountain of paper (including copies of the law, rules or whatever) you present them with, the more likely they are to do what you want - its too much work to do otherwise if you seem well prepared. That's been a general rule whether government offices (my draft board in the U.S. many years ago, "motorizzazione civile" in Italy not long ago, Italian national health) or private bureaucracies (numerous insurance companies, suppliers). Sometimes they even take a less-than-entirely-legal shortcut to get you what you need because that's less work than doing it by the book (both the draft board and motorizzazione civile did exactly that).
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby terry2 » 06 Jun 2019, 14:01

LROBBINS wrote:I'll absolutely second what Burgerman has said. If you need anything more than their "one size fits all", YOU write the "assessment" (or letter of medical necessity as Blue Cross calls it) then have the physician attach an endorsement, or re-type the letter on his stationary and sign it, and get endorsements from as many "professionals" as you can arm twist into supporting you. It doesn't matter whether it's a government program or a private insurer - their mantra is "deny, deny, deny" so you have to not give them any room or excuses.

It often seems that the bigger the mountain of paper (including copies of the law, rules or whatever) you present them with, the more likely they are to do what you want - its too much work to do otherwise if you seem well prepared. That's been a general rule whether government offices (my draft board in the U.S. many years ago, "motorizzazione civile" in Italy not long ago, Italian national health) or private bureaucracies (numerous insurance companies, suppliers). Sometimes they even take a less-than-entirely-legal shortcut to get you what you need because that's less work than doing it by the book (both the draft board and motorizzazione civile did exactly that).



Thanks dude.

As far as I know. My doctor signed and sent the form off. I now have to wait for them to call me(so my doctor says)
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 06 Jun 2019, 14:18

Do you always do as the system tells you?
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby terry2 » 06 Jun 2019, 15:56

Burgerman wrote:Do you always do as the system tells you?



Far from it :D

But the last time I tried. I failed.
I was with the doc for a good 20 mins answering things.
He also got stuff off the system about me and put it on the form.

And he signed it. I never signed it.
We shall see what happens :)
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby foghornleghorn » 06 Jun 2019, 19:57

terry2 wrote:I am hoping they give some cash towards a Meyra Optimus 2 RS.

I hope you haven't told them that.

Their aim is to provide a basic indoor wheelchair and any upgrades over that is what you will have to fight for.

A Meyra Optimus 2 RS is no use indoors at all so even if it is exactly what you need outside it doesn't cover the most essential indoor need they are supposed to provide for and I would expect them to treat you like are just being greedy.

Spec up the most feature laden brand new indoor/outdoor wheelchair you can justify to cover all your needs and ask them to provide the budget for that. Then buy a used wheelchair off ebay, and bung any spare funds at your dream Meyra.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 07 Jun 2019, 05:04

Personal Wc Budget. You get assessed for a indoor/outdoor chair. To decide on budget. You buy whatever you want.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby terry2 » 07 Jun 2019, 08:14

foghornleghorn wrote:
terry2 wrote:I am hoping they give some cash towards a Meyra Optimus 2 RS.

I hope you haven't told them that.

Their aim is to provide a basic indoor wheelchair and any upgrades over that is what you will have to fight for.

A Meyra Optimus 2 RS is no use indoors at all so even if it is exactly what you need outside it doesn't cover the most essential indoor need they are supposed to provide for and I would expect them to treat you like are just being greedy.

Spec up the most feature laden brand new indoor/outdoor wheelchair you can justify to cover all your needs and ask them to provide the budget for that. Then buy a used wheelchair off ebay, and bung any spare funds at your dream Meyra.



Thanks.
I haven't talked to them yet.
I know the Meyra is crap indoors. But I need\want it for outdoor\road use.
Everywhere I go I use my chair. I'm not allowed to drive a car\van.

Burgerman wrote:Personal Wc Budget. You get assessed for a indoor/outdoor chair. To decide on budget. You buy whatever you want.


Thanks BM

I will now spec up a few chairs and take the details with me when they call for me.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 07 Jun 2019, 09:54

They dont want to supply for outdoors. Only indoors. They will say that your mobility allowance is for that. This is part of why my argument for a budget instead so I can buy or build whatever I want came about. Since once up, I cannot change chairs to go out without carers or something. So needed a chair that does both.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 07 Jun 2019, 15:07

It will not steer properly unless you move the seat back which means centre footplate.

But you know what you want

Heres a rough outline of what I put in my assessement letter. This has errors, lacks many details, but to give those that listen to the wcs some idea...

Needs rewriting in logical order and errors coprrected, details added. But this is basically something liuke what I posted them last time. ONE YEAR EARLY!
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby terry2 » 07 Jun 2019, 17:23

Burgerman wrote:It will not steer properly unless you move the seat back which means centre footplate.

But you know what you want

Heres a rough outline of what I put in my assessement letter. This has errors, lacks many details, but to give those that listen to the wcs some idea...

Needs rewriting in logical order and errors coprrected, details added. But this is basically something liuke what I posted them last time. ONE YEAR EARLY!




Thank you very much for that :worship

I can use that as a template :D
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 08 Jun 2019, 01:12

I can use that as a template :D


Only if the same things apply to you. But the idea was to show the sort of info I give them. Then they send some expert to assess me which is a laugh. Because I have forgotten more about chairs than they know, and I definitely know more about my needs, and so it basically a case of either agreeing with me or trying to explain why I am wrong. Which they dont usually even bother to try. So, ticks a few boxes and then the wait for the wheels to grind till its bank day...

Then spend it how you want on what you need. Maybe 2 used chairs. Maybe a totally different chair. Maybe one you build.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby terry2 » 13 Jun 2019, 15:10

Burgerman wrote:
I can use that as a template :D


Only if the same things apply to you. But the idea was to show the sort of info I give them. Then they send some expert to assess me which is a laugh. Because I have forgotten more about chairs than they know, and I definitely know more about my needs, and so it basically a case of either agreeing with me or trying to explain why I am wrong. Which they dont usually even bother to try. So, ticks a few boxes and then the wait for the wheels to grind till its bank day...

Then spend it how you want on what you need. Maybe 2 used chairs. Maybe a totally different chair. Maybe one you build.



Understood.

Just had a phone call.
I am on the waiting list which is 6 weeks long.

They said they will come to my home to see if I need a chair, and that my place is suitable for one.

I do find that silly as I already have a chair. My doors have been widened and I have a ramp.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby ICEUK » 13 Jun 2019, 16:14

Terry; They like wasting money, its a little excursion for them. Expect to see two of them they like travelling in pairs!
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 13 Jun 2019, 16:37

Only 2 of them?

Expect seperate cars.

Be very sure you have already sent them YOUR assessement. Do not let them take charge

Just had a phone call.
I am on the waiting list which is 6 weeks long.

Unnacceptable.
Buy a chair to your spec, send them the bill explaining that you gave them plenty of time and cannot live on the floor or crawl.

They said they will come to my home to see if I need a chair, and that my place is suitable for one.

Thats another box they can tick to prevent them supplying a chair.
I do find that silly as I already have a chair. My doors have been widened and I have a ramp.

You are presuming that they use logic and reason.
They dont. They use a 'system'. They will assess you for a 4mph, spectre plus, just like everyone else if they cant find an exscuse to say no.

You have much to learn. The 'nice ladies' they are sending are there to find any way possible to save money. They are not there to benefit you.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby terry2 » 14 Jun 2019, 09:02

ICEUK wrote:Terry; They like wasting money, its a little excursion for them. Expect to see two of them they like travelling in pairs!



:D

Burgerman wrote:Only 2 of them?

Expect seperate cars.

Be very sure you have already sent them YOUR assessement. Do not let them take charge

Just had a phone call.
I am on the waiting list which is 6 weeks long.

Unnacceptable.
Buy a chair to your spec, send them the bill explaining that you gave them plenty of time and cannot live on the floor or crawl.

They said they will come to my home to see if I need a chair, and that my place is suitable for one.

Thats another box they can tick to prevent them supplying a chair.
I do find that silly as I already have a chair. My doors have been widened and I have a ramp.

You are presuming that they use logic and reason.
They dont. They use a 'system'. They will assess you for a 4mph, spectre plus, just like everyone else if they cant find an exscuse to say no.

You have much to learn. The 'nice ladies' they are sending are there to find any way possible to save money. They are not there to benefit you.



I was hopin I could go to there office as it's only 3 miles up the road.
But they said no. They need to see my place :fencing

It's run by solihull council who has done the mods to my place. Why didn't they just make a phone call to check it out!?
But I have 6 weeks to get my assessment ready. No they did not ask me to send one.



The other thing is. My daughter just got me a 75" TV.
I bet they won't like that or think I am rich
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 14 Jun 2019, 10:04

Its a TV. The world has big TVs now. Theres 2x OLED ones here. A 65 in the living room, and a 55 connected to my PC as a monitor. About 5k. If I go down my street I will see much the same in every house. It doesent matter even if you are rich. Its non of their damned business. My neibours have both a 70K BMW M3, and a 110K Porche 911 with 14 inch wide tyres on it that cost as much as your TV alone. The are also living in big expensive houses, full of designer furniture and both have 75 and 85 inch TVs. They are just as entitled to a powerchair as someone living on benefits, in a rented flat. More so actally, since they likely to have payed much more INTO the system.

And the ONLY reason they are looking at your house is to spot any possible reason for NOT supplying you a chair. Can you self propel or transfer to a manual one? They refuse some powerchairs because of even this. Never mind a narrow doorway or step or whatever. They are there to find reasons not to get you what you want. Nowhere safe to store it? Etc. They are not there to benefit you. But to save as much of their budget as they can. While smiling and asking leading questions.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby LROBBINS » 14 Jun 2019, 11:00

Don't wait till they ask you for your assessment. Prepare it, send it to them before their visit, and have a copy to hand to them when they arrive because most likely they'll not have even glanced at the one you send. The better prepared you seem, the more paper you throw at them, the less they will think you're just a pushover. If you can have readily at hand all of the REAL regulations they are SUPPOSED to follow (not what they say) put those under their noses when they get obstreperous.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 14 Jun 2019, 11:07

Quite. Ask them to bring a copy of their remit with them. So you can point out the bits where it tells you that they are supposed to consider your whole situation, hobbies, interests, lifestyle and preferences - not just minimal, indoor, clinical requirements. Your wants, needs, full joined up holistic equirements are also to be assessed. YOU must be ahead of them, with your own very detailed assessements. Like that draught one I posted earlier, but relating to your own situation and needs. If you do not, you will be stitched up with whatever the cheapest option that they can get away with is. Thats they main job, $$$$$$$ saving.

Dont allow them to lead, and be sure they can see you are fully armed with all the info and a printed personal assessed needs already done. Leave them nowhere to go, so that they are not offering you something inadequate, leaving you to argue for something better, but trying to put out the existing fire...

Give them your printed copy in an adressed envelope.
Also save as PDF file, and give them a few copies on cheap small memory sticks (ebay, about 99p) in the envelope. They will say they cant use them (regulations). But they will regardless.

2 types of people. Those that are prepared, organised, that get what they wanted. Those that are told what they will get and accept it.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby terry2 » 16 Jun 2019, 09:51

Thank you very much for the info guys.

It's all going on my tablet ready and armed for them :D
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