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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 09 Feb 2018, 15:28

Personal health budget is not a personal budget for wheelchairs. The latter replaces the vouches scheme, and is paid by wheelchair services. Those are different things. The difference is greater freedom in what you buy and why, or what you make...

For eg, you might prefer buy a pair of used chairs from a dealer on ebay for half price or less. For eg an as new 7k chair for 2k thats a few months old and as new https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/QUICKIE-SALS ... SwX3FaLEOH Leaving enough to buy 2 spare backup ones!
Maybe https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/QUICKIE-SALS ... Sw1GlaaM9Z or whatever suits your needs and wants. Showroom condition. 1/3rd the cost.
Few more, I searched only salsa... https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from ... r&_sacat=0

Or a 4 pole 6mph rear drive Jive R2 with tilt, lift, recline, power legs, black tyres, looks like new, low hours, under 2k https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/QUICKIE-JIVE ... Swvktac44g Thats a 10k chair. Seting pushes you forwards, as does far too big footplate. Salsa one is better as I have. Or same problem here with 1 hours use https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/KYMCO-K-ACTI ... 0005.m1851 All easily sorted! :hammer

Or build your own. Or modify one. Or two. Or get an indoor chair and a off road capable one. Whatever suits your needs. It also means that you can look after them, and repair them yourself and make a chair last longer and so save your budget for a bigger better chair next time. All depends on you. Your abilities. Your knowledge, and your needs.

How much they offer you however depends on their assessement of your needs. They generally give what they would pay for a chair that fits the assessement, plus cushion, plus maintainance.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby biscuit » 09 Feb 2018, 20:59

Burgerman, thank you for pioneering this. And thank you for reminding me of what assessments are for!

It sounds like you were the example of a success for the Personal Wheelchair Budget system that is supposedly being rolled out in Boston - at a PWB presentation I went to they gave me a leaflet with the story of you (seemed to be, anyway) on it. Nice if they give me a PWB instead of wishing a chair on me. Meanwhile as they are kicking their heels and not giving me anything, I just get on with my cheap & cheerful Vienna. (aka Viennese, these days, since I fixed up a few annoyances on it.)
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 09 Feb 2018, 21:06

Bet they didnt say much about how I embarrassed them into it. :oops:
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby biscuit » 09 Feb 2018, 22:29

Burgerman wrote:Bet they didnt say much about how I embarrassed them into it. :oops:

No, they were boasting. :lol:
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby biscuit » 09 Feb 2018, 23:00

Indoor chairs, you can get one cheap on fleabay and it's worth it imo. I try not to use my chair indoors because of the weak legs problem, so I cruise or use crutches, but I find my little 2nd hand chair that I got cheaply is very helpful indoors on bad days (Vienna, a very small chair suitable for part-time walkers) and it gave me food for thought as to what I would like and hate in a proper wheelchair, especially after the honeymoon period had ended. And my opinions changed a lot applied to a real chair instead of a theoretical one.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 09 Feb 2018, 23:00

The health department representitive that came to my house via train and some limo, and the local guy for council care budgets etc that was helping and organising this called lee horton, were both quite keen to help. It was the WCS that were less than keen. They went along with it because they had little choice.

Either way the amount you get still depends on their asssesement and your ability to get your own way.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Scooterman » 10 Feb 2018, 12:07

Burgerman wrote:The difference is greater freedom in what you buy and why, or what you make...

For eg, you might prefer buy a pair of used chairs from a dealer on ebay for half price or less.


Knowing the jobsworth risk adverse attitude of officialdom in this country I'm amazed they would agree to a 'patient' using the money to purchase secondhand equipment. The NHS won't even re-loan out returned crutches or other temporarily issued 'disabled' equipment for fear of it structurally failing and ending up with a lawsuit for personal injury claim.
More power to your elbow BM for actually getting them to agree it to. :thumbup:
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Scooterman » 10 Feb 2018, 12:11

biscuit wrote:at a PWB presentation I went to they gave me a leaflet with the story of you (seemed to be, anyway) on it.

Don't suppose you have the leaflet anymore do you? If yes can you upload a copy?
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 10 Feb 2018, 14:28

I was sat in my own fat tyres lithium powered chair when I was showing them why I could do better with the same or less cash as what they had assessed as would be required if they supplied a chair. So they could hardly say that I couldnt. 10 years of building my own at my own expense proved I could do what I claimed.

Their WCS OT did mention that wheelies were dangerous. Having watched me in the hospital corridors going 50 feet at a time. Till I pointed out that BETTER QUALIFIED Ocupational Therapists in all major spinal injuries units actually train and encourage paraplegics to do just that. With non powered chairs to allow curbs etc. And that the only reason industry powerchairs couldnt do the same was bad design/programming/crap 2 pole motors/cg and so inadquate control etc. That then made THEM look a bit silly and contradctory. So they wisely shut up. Some of the meeting were quite hilarious if you were me, and I only did it for my own amusement. Never actually expected to end up with a pilot scheme budget. They suddenly made them look a lot more helpful and enligtened in my eyes. They finally figured it out I can do more with the same money.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 14 Feb 2018, 13:40

So then, the results of everyones new attitude is?
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Scooterman » 14 Feb 2018, 17:26

Burgerman wrote:So then, the results of everyones new attitude is?

Mine is to be pro-active, I sent off a letter last week. But I wish I had some of your gumption :D
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby biscuit » 14 Feb 2018, 17:44

Found my papers from the presentation last year... can't upload the text on my phone, but one example on the "Wheelchair Personal Health Budget" leaflet I got was "John, aged 51 and from the local area, a skilled engineer, left paraplegic after a motor accident in 1997".... etc.

"John uses his personal health budget" that's what the leaflet says "to pay for mechanical parts so he can build high specification customised power wheelchairs for himself, to help avoid muscle spasms and to maintain his active lifestyle."

So it looks as though Boston is planning on kind of mashing up PWBs and PHBs. They said they will launch in January this year. Myself, I let the NHS and councils do their thing and I do mine.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 14 Feb 2018, 17:55

That sounds like me... Yes they are mixing it up with some other budget. Mine is paid by some agreement between WCS and the LA directly into my Direct Payments for care budget. As far as I am aware I have never had any personal health budget And nothing to do with the CCG etc... Quite how they organise that between themselves isnt my problem! And shouldnt be yours. I just contact WCS every 3 years.

A careful read here https://www.england.nhs.uk/personal-hea ... r-budgets/
seems to say that it replaces the voucher scheme. And that they have added the the powerchair budget to the health budget? But thats not the case with me. And its hard to see how they CAN do this if it replaces the voucher scheme! Since that didnt require a heath budget and still doesent!
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 14 Feb 2018, 18:11

Knowing the jobsworth risk adverse attitude of officialdom in this country I'm amazed they would agree to a 'patient' using the money to purchase secondhand equipment. The NHS won't even re-loan out returned crutches or other temporarily issued 'disabled' equipment for fear of it structurally failing and ending up with a lawsuit for personal injury claim.
More power to your elbow BM for actually getting them to agree it to. :thumbup:


Then this

Found my papers from the presentation last year... can't upload the text on my phone, but one example on the "Wheelchair Personal Health Budget" leaflet I got was "John, aged 51 and from the local area, a skilled engineer, left paraplegic after a motor accident in 1997".... etc.

"John uses his personal health budget" that's what the leaflet says "to pay for mechanical parts so he can build high specification customised power wheelchairs for himself, to help avoid muscle spasms and to maintain his active lifestyle."


So they are boasting that they did allow me to do my own thing. So they dont see a problem. But there isnt one here anyway! The whole idea is to give you the choices and risks to do as YOU want. Its your life.

If they start with the typical institutionalised get out of jail card for doing this, their typical inbuilt holier than thou safety nazi bullshit, point them at the very reason the system was set up! Me... To do exactly that!

I would love a scan of that paperwork!
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby biscuit » 14 Feb 2018, 18:36

By snail mail, no problem. (I can post things, but I can't post things.)
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 14 Feb 2018, 20:36

OK thanks! See PM!
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 15 Feb 2018, 12:31

Out of interest, I just called my local wheelchair services. Not only do they not offer power wheelchair budgets, they and I was talking to the boss, have never heard of it! You couldnt make it up could you.

And I am on this for 7 years already!

Personal wheelchair budgets

In May 2016, Simon Stevens announced that NHS England would be developing a personal health budgets model for the provision of wheelchairs. This work is being led by NHS England’s Personal Health Budget Team, as part of plans for the wider expansion of personal health budgets nationally.

Since April 2017, all clinical commissioning groups (CCGs) in England have been expected to start developing local personal wheelchair budget offers to replace the current wheelchair voucher system.

During 2017, all CCGs should publish the details of their personal wheelchair budget offer as part of their personal health budget local offer, usually available on CCG websites.

During the transitional period, wheelchair vouchers should still be made available.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby biscuit » 16 Feb 2018, 17:21

I had the feeling they are only going to start rolling it out this year in Lincolnshire. And that means doing the bare minimum for as long as they can, i.e. nothing at all but a presentation so far. The presentation was in December-ish, gently introducing the idea of PWBs to Lincs wheelchair users. I think they asked me because I'm on a wheelchair assessment waiting list. Millbrook is the local NHS approved wheelchair supplier and they had a stand at the event. I'm not surprised at your experience, as nobody seemed to have any particular mission at the event, we all just lurked around eating mince pies and I collected the papers I've sent you; and I also gave my contact details to the organizer as she asked for them, but she hasn't done anything detectable with them. So I suppose I ought to be approaching them before they have decided how it is done, which will no doubt be "not at all if we can get away with it". :roll: What larks.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 16 Feb 2018, 17:40

Dont give them a minute. Letters, calls, and more. Daily!

They rely on the fact that you cant be bothered, all too much trouble, time, and then you give up.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby biscuit » 16 Feb 2018, 18:42

If anyone has any pro-forma for an official wheelchair assessment it would be helpful if you could post it, as it will give some idea of what questions the assessors think want answering. It's more the kind of thing I and many others can do, rather than starting with an alarmingly blank page. Otherwise I'll find myself telling them that my Viennese is perfect just as it is and it cost me a song.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 16 Feb 2018, 18:46

Last one I saw I returned to them with all the questions corrected so that it made sense. Or crossed out with an explanation as to why the question was wrong.

Basically they dont have a clue about how to assess your needs. And you should tell them so. And write a personal assessement.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 16 Feb 2018, 18:49

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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Scooterman » 16 Feb 2018, 18:54

Scooterman wrote:
Burgerman wrote:So then, the results of everyones new attitude is?

Mine is to be pro-active, I sent off a letter last week. But I wish I had some of your gumption :D

I had a phone call yesterday and WCS have made an appointment for a home visit on Monday. So much for the assessment waiting list, it proves it doesn't have to be 16wks, although I had been on the list for about 11wks! It was only due to advice in this thread that I decided to be more pro-active.

I don't think this is about the personal wheelchair budget as it would be my first powerchair, which I would be happy with as a learning chair.

But I'm not hopeful of passing the assessment though, she already emphasised on the phone that the chair has to be primarily indoor use, which it will be used for, but the real benefit of a powerchair for me will be outdoors and accessing public transport. They can't disqualify me on grounds of my flat as it's totally wheelchair friendly. If they do turn me down then at least I would know where I'll stand metaphorically speaking.

I'll then look into either buying a used Salsa R2 and making some mods similar to BM's new chair ((without tilt or elevate) (with his advice)), or going the whole hog and getting a standard Kilmore chair (no tilt or elevate). I'm only a lightweight and not a heavy user so a well built chair should last me years, maybe even to the grave...
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby biscuit » 14 Mar 2018, 11:47

scooterman did wheelchair services say no to you in the end, they won't let you have a budget? Or is it that they will not give you an actual chair?
I have an indoor - strictly indoor - "Viennese" and recently bought a used Salsa R2 for the pavement, I wouldn't like to take it off-road as it drives on biscuits. The Vienna chassis and seating with the salsa everything else but fatter wheels, would be a nice chair for me, though I can't see that hybrid working as there is nowhere for the batteries to fit for starters, and I have barely got the energy to lift a screwdriver atm.
Meanwhile the Vienna is on its last legs, and I will then have no chair indoors, so wheelchair services might be helpful then. Meanwhile I do my own thing, as long as it's affordable.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Scooterman » 14 Mar 2018, 12:20

biscuit wrote:scooterman did wheelchair services say no to you in the end, they won't let you have a budget? Or is it that they will not give you an actual chair?
I have an indoor - strictly indoor - "Viennese" and recently bought a used Salsa R2 for the pavement, I wouldn't like to take it off-road as it drives on biscuits. The Vienna chassis and seating with the salsa everything else but fatter wheels, would be a nice chair for me, though I can't see that hybrid working as there is nowhere for the batteries to fit for starters, and I have barely got the energy to lift a screwdriver atm.
Meanwhile the Vienna is on its last legs, and I will then have no chair indoors, so wheelchair services might be helpful then. Meanwhile I do my own thing, as long as it's affordable.

Hi, yes they turned me down, I thought they probably would. They couldn't refuse me on the grounds of my property which is powerchair accessible, but the assessor said using a powerchair indoors would make my life more difficult. Which was a more polite way of saying, "We ain't giving you one pal!"
I couldn't really argue against it as it's a one bed flat with solid floors so I can get around simples in a manual chair. But I can't outside which the assessor did accept. WCS did sent me a list of charities which I won't be applying to. I intend either to splash the cash and get one of Tom Kilmore's chairs which are superb. Or look for some secondhand thing to get me by. See I only need a powerchair to go certain places, it will compliment my scooters and manual chair.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 14 Mar 2018, 12:37

I wouldn't like to take it off-road as it drives on biscuits.


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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby CPguy » 14 Mar 2018, 13:13

With reference to this form posted by Burgerman (http://www.enherts-tr.nhs.uk/files/2012 ... l-form.pdf) I found strange things: "Title: Mr. Mrs. Ms. Miss. and Master". Why on earth do they ask for a "master" title. I mean why not BSc, BA, MA and MSc. that would make more sense.

Second why do they ask about "race" at the end? In Austria, that would be illegal.

Can someone please explain these things to me?
My rides:
1 BM2/BM3 with 120 A R-Net and Odessey (Lithium in 2016)
1 SKS Swiss VIVA (spare, as only NF22 size battery)
2 Progeo YOGA (for traveling)
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 14 Mar 2018, 13:58

MASTER refers to a young person.

The bit where you get asked about race etc is because in a massive effort to prove how open and liberal the nhs is, they give priority to as many non whites, as many confused sexualities and as many immirants as possible. Those of us that are actually british, paid taxes for generations, are put at the end of the line.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby CPguy » 14 Mar 2018, 14:57

@ Burgerman: Thank you for the information! So, in this context "master" is the male equivalent of "miss", right?

The "race" thing sounds familiar. Here in Austria we have loads of Turkish immigrants and lets just say they have a surprisingly easy and comprehensive access to our social benefits already upon arrival.
My rides:
1 BM2/BM3 with 120 A R-Net and Odessey (Lithium in 2016)
1 SKS Swiss VIVA (spare, as only NF22 size battery)
2 Progeo YOGA (for traveling)
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 14 Mar 2018, 15:09

Yes master = young man.#

Doctors surgery full of immigrants, but I cant get an appointment. Going to try blacking up next time.
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