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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 06 Aug 2018, 22:15

This Wheelchair budget thing is new. Well they had 2 years and then some to get organised already. But its driven from the top down by the people ryunning the NHS. And from the bottom up (people like me forcing the issue and starting a pilot scheme some 7.5 years ago. And every 3 years since.) The WCS are in the middle. Mine didnt even know I existed, or that they were supposed to be offerering the same budget to all in january. And had no intention of doing ANYTHING about it. Until I again forced the issue. They have got to do it, it is your right. And its why the NHS website has many pages of info on it and theres no mention of any area not being a part of it. It still says all.

The only problem you have is that you are not very persuasive! And each WCS hates this plan. They choose to do nothing is you LET them do that. They told me the same thing. But they were forced to act because I am very persuasive. They are all going to have to do it in the end no matter how much they choose to pretend its not happening. Make them get on with it.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby salixfire » 06 Aug 2018, 23:04

As it's not the end of 2018 they think they can get away without doing them. I've been arguing with my local CCG and they have purposely given me "contacts" who are in charge of the PWB but turn out to be away, long term sick. Who when another member of their dept. called me back (I left an message on an answerphone anyway) they informed me that the PWB has nothing to do with their dept. but will look into who's it is. Then never hear from them again. The CCG keeps giving me the run around, but I can't pin them down until the wheelchair clinic "allows" me a powerchair, and not my self propelled one that I can't use. Which CCG are you with MichaelB?
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby MichaelB » 07 Aug 2018, 12:04

salixfire wrote:As it's not the end of 2018 they think they can get away without doing them. I've been arguing with my local CCG and they have purposely given me "contacts" who are in charge of the PWB but turn out to be away, long term sick. Who when another member of their dept. called me back (I left an message on an answerphone anyway) they informed me that the PWB has nothing to do with their dept. but will look into who's it is. Then never hear from them again. The CCG keeps giving me the run around, but I can't pin them down until the wheelchair clinic "allows" me a powerchair, and not my self propelled one that I can't use. Which CCG are you with MichaelB?


I've fought with them for 3 years, firstly to get a voucher then PWB appeared and I had to inform them that it was coming. Tried 3 times now and finally have a written refusal with their decision. Sadly it is all managed by the same CCG team that look after my continuing health care package and I already have to fight to keep care hours, make too much noise about a chair and I risk losing care hours. Currently that package is worth over £200k pa. It is stupid to upset it when I am self employed and can get Access to Work to assist with the funding of a more suitable chair for my job. I'm with Cumbria CCG and had same problem as you, they even pointed me to continuing health care team at one point, no-one knew who was dealing with it for a long time.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby ICEUK » 12 Aug 2018, 07:14

Wcs have to new lows as they dont want to fit new headrest or lights on my jive chair even though it comes as standsrd and 60 amp batteries. Unbeliveable you got to fight fir basics
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 12 Aug 2018, 11:01

Jive with seating options/lift etc is getting on for 190kg. 60Ah batteries are a joke. Esp if you made the mistake of 8mph motors. Those dont have adequate torque and murder the battery especially indoors. Best go for 6mph 4 pole and 120A controller.

Plus the salsa is a better bet. Same EXACT chair without the dodgy seating, if you tick the right boxes on the prescription form. That Jive seating pushes you further forwards. With the salsa you can fit any number of fancy backs, and your own cushion, and it allows rearward CG by letting you sit further back level with seat canes.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby steves1977uk » 16 Aug 2018, 15:15

WCS are utterly useless round here, my Mother had a phone call from them this morning saying they are unable to help me because they haven't got any paperwork which was supposed to be passed over to Norwich from Kings Lynn. So she phoned them back and wasn't in a very good mood because she's fed up with being giving the runaround. My OT referred me to have an assessment a few months back, so she knows it's been put through. She has advised my Mother to go through the complaints procedure at WCS if they haven't responded to the message she left on their answer phone.

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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 16 Aug 2018, 16:41

They dont need ANY paperwork.
They can appear, reassess, and deal with it today. Send cheque tomorrow. IF THEY WORKED AS INTENDED.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby steves1977uk » 16 Aug 2018, 17:03

Oh I realise that BM, but they make everything such hard work! When I gave the last assessor the PWB information sheets, he looked at them but didn't say much. Don't think they like the idea giving the end user the buying power because it makes them look incompetent! :cussing

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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 16 Aug 2018, 17:23

The reason it exists at all and my pilot scheme existed in the first place, was precisely because I showed the powers that be that the WCS are incompetant. And it was spectacularly easy to do that.

Complaints though the official lines do nothing. Its just THEM you are complaining too. Thats like complaining to the police about the police, so they can do an "internal" investigation. It just means they discuss what a problem *you* are to them. Between themselves. Because you want them to actually function and do their job instead of drinking coffee and taklking about what they did at the weekend. This is the problem with social medicine. Or socialism. No need to make a profit, no competition, nobody cares if anything gets done, and nobody gets fired for zero productivity. So they have endless meetings with coffee and lots of staff, lots of talk, wander around in groups doing assessements and nothing ever ever actually gets done. But lots of chiefs, plans, paper etc. Socialism at its best. This is the same reason venuzualans are now starving.

The way to get action is to sue them or at least theaten to, by recorded delivery letter from your soliciter, and make sure you send letters to the administrators, CCG, not to the WCS and explain how INCOMPETANT they all are. And show why and how the papers and your MP will be contacted next if no action today. Then they will do something straight away. Because they dnt want to be in the limelight as incompetant.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby MichaelB » 17 Aug 2018, 16:10

In a lot of cases the problem is the CCG, for example Cumbria across to the north east the CCG's use the same policy so it is pointless complaining to them as they won't give WCS the funding even if WCS wanted to help you. .

If you are refused send the complaining letter to the CCG when they refuse again go to the ombudsman, they have the power to change things. I've recently taken legal advice on being rejected for a powerchair PWB and the solicitor agreed that it looks like my CCG is not complying with the principle of PWB and advised that I complain, get another rejection then go to the ombudsman as there is no other legal recourse.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 17 Aug 2018, 16:57

In a lot of cases the problem is the CCG, for example Cumbria across to the north east the CCG's use the same policy so it is pointless complaining to them as they won't give WCS the funding even if WCS wanted to help you. .


Yes they will if you make them. Because the government makes the rules. They have no option.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 17 Aug 2018, 16:59

It is not the choice of the CCG who are to do as instructed, but the decision of the government ministers in charge and of the NHS bosses. Primarily caused by their biggest troublemager myself in 2008. And that pilot scheme is now rolled out legally from the top, across ALL CCGs after a pilot scheme I started on by myself in 2009. After showing them what a useless waste of money and incapable of success the WCS really were in meetings with the governments Department of health's cabinet minister here at my house, plus the NHS bosses, etc. And a red faced boss of the WCS locally.

This is the NHS top bosses and government ruling as mandated by parliment to THEM the CCGs:

In May 2016, Simon Stevens ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Ste ... HS_England) who is a gov politician and in charge of the whole NHS), announced that NHS England would be developing a personal health budgets model for the provision of wheelchairs. This work is being led by NHS England’s Personal Health Budget Team, as part of plans for the wider expansion of personal health budgets nationally.

Since April 2017, all clinical commissioning groups (CCGs) in England have been expected to start developing local personal wheelchair budget offers to replace the current wheelchair voucher system.

During 2017/18, all CCGs should publish the details of their personal wheelchair budget offer as part of their personal health budget local offer, usually available on CCG websites.

During the transitional period, wheelchair vouchers should still be made available.


https://www.england.nhs.uk/personal-hea ... r-budgets/
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby MichaelB » 17 Aug 2018, 17:15

Advice from solicitor who was helping me:

have considered the position regarding Personal Wheelchair Budgets (PWB) and set out some information below. There are arguments to be made about NC CCG’s approach to your case and how they handle PWBs in general. If you wish to make a complaint I have set out some guidance below and attached the CCG’s complaints leaflet.

Aim of PWBs

According to NHS England, the PWB is a ‘resource available to support people’s choice of wheelchair, either within NHS commissioned services or outside of NHS commissioned services’.

The aim of introducing the PWB is to ‘increase choice and control for people who access wheelchair services’. This is achieved by:

· ‘Providing holistic assessments that take into account people’s wider needs and how good wheelchair provision can increase independence and improve people’s health and wellbeing outcome

· Supporting people to identify their own health and wellbeing goals

· Better integration of services around individuals by bringing together care and support agencies

· Increasing the availability of information about the choices available to people locally’.

The amount someone receives in their PWB is determined following an assessment of the person’s clinical needs. The responsibility for commissioning PWBs is carried out by local Clinical Commissioning Groups (CCGS).



For a CCG to adopt a position that a PWB cannot be used towards the purchase of a powered wheelchair is counterintuitive to the aim of the PWB. For example, if an individual cannot use a self-propelling wheelchair and they live in an area which the CCG has set out that the PWB cannot be used towards the purchase of powered wheelchair this person either gets no funding or funding to purchase a manual wheelchair which does not meet their clinical needs.

As set out in the Wheelchair Leadership Alliance Charter, the introduction of PWBs is to support the delivery of two key actions:

1) A person centred service that works in partnership with service users and their carers and makes the user/carer voice central to any design, innovation and service change.

2) Innovative and flexible budgeting working with key partners to strengthen integration across health, social care, work and education, enabling the accommodation of individual needs, independence, health and wellbeing.

Having a PWB which cannot be used towards the purchase of a powered wheelchair arguably does not satisfy these actions points.

Evidence of other CCG’s providing funding for powered wheelchairs

The following CCGs have set out that a PWB can be used towards the purchase of a powered wheelchair if it has been assessed that such a chair is necessary to meet the needs of the user:

· Dudley Clinical Commissioning Group

· Herts Valleys Clinical Commissioning Group

· Southampton City Clinical Commissioning Group

· NHS Thanet Clinical Commissioning Group (CCG)



This list is not exhaustive and there may be more CCGs which accommodate this.

This demonstrates that a person’s ability to access a powered wheelchair is based on a postcode lottery. Again, the aim of introducing the PWB was to eliminate this.

Why have NC CCG not provided any funding towards the purchase of a powered wheelchair?

It could be argued that CCG should have provided you with some sort of funding. If they assessed you as having a clinical need to have a wheelchair, even if they believed a manual wheelchair would suffice, then it could be argued that this sum for your prescribed wheelchair should be paid to you to use towards the purchase of a powered wheelchair of your choice.

In accordance with the regulatory framework for the PWB, individuals can contribute their own money to the money they get from a PWB. Depending on the type of personal wheelchair budget the individual has, they could have the option to top up the budget which may allow them to add an additional feature to the prescribed wheelchair or they could use their wheelchair budget to a buy a wheelchair from another approved supplier.

It might be worth asking the CCG to set out their specific reasons for not providing funding for powered wheelchairs as their letter of 23 May 2018 does not provide this information. This may lead to further grounds on which to base your complaint.

Making a complaint to NC CCG

I attach the NC CCG’s complaints leaflet for your information. First step in making a complaint is to make contact with the CCG. They will need to pass this information on to North of England Commissioning Support Unit (NECS) who manage complaints on the behalf of all CCGs.

A complaint should be made within 12 months from the date the issue occurred or when it came to your attention. As the decision letter is dated 23 May 2018, a complaint would need to be made by 23 May 2019.

If you remain unhappy with how your complaint has been handled you can ask the Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman (PHSO) to review your complaint. You should take your complaint to the PHSO within a year of when you first became aware of the problem.
Ends

That will apply to other CCG's, the only thing that you can do is complain then go to the ombudsman. You are wasting your time threatening to sue them as there is no legal recourse, I know because I tried hence getting this advice. I also contacted local TV and press with the story but got little response.

The only person who can get the CCG to move will be the ombudsman but once one person succeeds in an area the precedent is set for others. It would be useful to know when someone does succeed so others in that area know.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 17 Aug 2018, 17:22

I suggest a better soliciter. I didn tuse one at all. I find them as useless and officious and as slow as the NHS.
I wrote my own letters, and did my own meetings, made many calls and got everything started from scratch. When there WAS NO powerchair budgets...
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby MichaelB » 17 Aug 2018, 17:56

Burgerman wrote:I suggest a better soliciter. I didn tuse one at all. I find them as useless and officious as the NHS.
I wrote my own letters, and did my own meetings, and got everything started from scratch. When there WAS NO powerchair budgets...


I only consulted one as like your pointless advice about suing I tried that approach and got nowhere. Like any form of negotiating you need the person or body to interact, if they don't you can't get any where. My local WCS and CCG won't change stance, all they will do is follow their procedure so I have to play to their game, make the complaint, then go to the ombudsman. That is all that they understand. The only way they will change is because the government appointed ombudsman tells them to so you have to make that happen. For the majority reading this who get refused that is the best way to do it, unless you have a weak CCG who can be pushed around but I don't think many of them exist certainly not from my experience of Continuing Health Care policy goes.

You've been lucky to have one that you can influence others aren't so lucky and it doesn't matter what you say or do you get nowhere, there is nothing more frustrating than trying to negotiate with an organisation that has its rules and you can't get to change. And please don't say it is down to how hard one tries, I'm more than capable of fighting a battle with government departments, still running my own business despite a C3 complete SCI.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 17 Aug 2018, 18:07

But it seems that you got nowhere doing it your way.

I tried the nice way of doing things first. Then I did what many years in business told me was the only way to make them DO anything.
And my way got me a pilot scheme, of 1 started. That started the powerchair budget to be launched from the top in place of the useless wheelchair services voucher scheme. After they told me all the same bullshit you are falling for back in 2008. So I went a lot higher, and in an industrial attack. My powerchair budgets started almost straight away, and has been ongoing 7 years or so, and now that was rolled out for all the rest of you this year. And in my case it pays me every 3 years to build my own or to buy a chair. 3rd cycle payment here, with no more arguments with the WCS needed.

So obviously you are incorrect... banghead

My local WCS and CCG won't change stance, all they will do is follow their procedure so I have to play to their game, make the complaint, then go to the ombudsman.


WHO CARES, THEY DONT GET TO DECIDE. GO ABOVE THEM!!! They have already been instructed what to do. You cant deal with them, so talk to the engine driver, not the oily rag. Why do you have to play THEIR game? Thats what they WANT you to do. The system is DESIGNED to send you in circles. I gave up on them after a week, I was dealing with nigel lansleys department, health minister at the time, and they came here to me. SUCCESSFUL RESULT.

Heres what they dont like. Being belittled and having their incompetance waved in public, on national newspapers, disability websites and magazines, notices pinned on spinal injuries units, and endless emails sent to every last NHS and government email adressses and by snail mail, as many email and snail mailadresses as you can find, repeatedly. And buy the chair you need, write your own detailed assessements as to why its needed, and bill them for it and be sure to send everything recorded delivery to multiple places. Then wait a week.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby MichaelB » 18 Aug 2018, 16:52

Burgerman wrote:But it seems that you got nowhere doing it your way.

So obviously you are incorrect... banghead


I'm doing exactly what you were doing, only my CCG won't move as they know if I get it there are another 3 or 4 people waiting to do the same. Despite us having the right to it. Tried the threat of legal action and got a reply from their legal team that it wouldn't make any difference. That is when you consult solicitors as you need to know your rights, which is what I copied above.

Burgerman wrote:WHO CARES, THEY DONT GET TO DECIDE. GO ABOVE THEM!!! They have already been instructed what to do. You cant deal with them, so talk to the engine driver, not the oily rag. Why do you have to play THEIR game? Thats what they WANT you to do. The system is DESIGNED to send you in circles. I gave up on them after a week, I was dealing with nigel lansleys department, health minister at the time, and they came here to me. SUCCESSFUL RESULT.



The way to do it for the majority is to use their own system, apply, get rejected, follow the complaint procedure and when they don't move hit them with the ombudsman, the government appointed person who does have power over them, he can force them to follow the rules. he is the only person above them!

You were lucky to have a CCG that would move, the majority won't and the only way to win is via the ombudsman but first you have to go through the game as you can't get the ombudsman involved until you have. That is where I am at, complaint process started, waiting for it to be thrown back then I can go above them. For the majority of people who get rejected following the complaint procedure and going to the ombudsman is the easiest route, not threatening legal action or going to the press.

I'm not really bothered now, I've got my new chair on order paid for by Access to Work but I will continue to follow the procedure and involve the ombudsman because of the principle. If others get rejected they should do the same, it will only change when they are made to by a higher power which is the ombudsman.

The end result will be the same as you achieved which is all that matters.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 18 Aug 2018, 17:38

The way to do it for the majority is to use their own system, apply, get rejected, follow the complaint procedure and when they don't move hit them with the ombudsman, the government appointed person who does have power over them, he can force them to follow the rules. he is the only person above them!

Thats the way they designed the system for you to follow. You will get absolutely nowhere, and 5 yeaars from now will still be waiting, waiting, sending polite letters. They fob you off with bullshit, assessements, excuses, as their job is to not spend money on anything but coffee and meetings. Like these: https://www.events.england.nhs.uk/care- ... -workshops Please note incidentally that yet again it says ALL WCS will develop this during 2017. Direct from the top. Not your local CCGS choice!

You were lucky to have a CCG that would move, the majority won't and the only way to win is via the ombudsman but first you have to go through the game as you can't get the ombudsman involved until you have.


Wrong. Luck, or CCGs never entered into it. I didnt even bother with them. I went to the top with a complaint about the whole system, specifically the WCS, and had the UK government health department agree this pilot scheme with the NHS bosses and my local authority here at my house. They made/agrred with the local council fund it initially as a trial, and they got their money back from the NHS. There were no discussions with the self regulating CCG complaints merry go round or the WCS department because obviously they are not there to help you. They exist to smooth things out while doing as little as they can get away with. They are not your freind. And they are just local departments which have to do as they are told by those above them. They both found out last. After I had the money, and after it was all agreed.

That is where I am at, complaint process started, waiting for it to be thrown back then I can go above them. For the majority of people who get rejected following the complaint procedure and going to the ombudsman is the easiest route, not threatening legal action or going to the press.

I wish you luck with that! :clap
And if it ever succeeds its because I made it happen at all, 7 years back by doing things MY WAY! Or you wouldnt have a "powerchair budget" to complain about. banghead
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby MichaelB » 19 Aug 2018, 12:33

One very simple question, who can tell a CCG what to do and make them comply?

Forgot your bullshit advice on threatening legal action, it doesn't work unless you are lucky enough to have a CCG that moves, just give me the person who has power over them.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby steves1977uk » 19 Aug 2018, 14:51

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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 19 Aug 2018, 16:41

One very simple question, who can tell a CCG what to do and make them comply?

Forgot your bullshit advice on threatening legal action, it doesn't work unless you are lucky enough to have a CCG that moves, just give me the person who has power over them.


Level one.
The government and parliment make the rules. Determined by the voter... They are in charge of what gets done. They give the power to decide what happens to their health department. Which in my case was run by nigel lansley. Not sure who at the moment.

Level two.
The Governments HEALTH DEPARTMENT who I dealt with my way (the bullshit way) from westminster, here at my house. You know, the way thats bullshit. That doesent work. Along with a minister in charge of direct payments and personal budgets from the governments health department and my local authority, and the hospital bosses) are charged with making sure this happens. They instruct the NHS about national/government planning and what they must do... And because of my bullshit way, they did just exactly that. I had a cheque in 3 months. Renewable 3 yearly. Based on MY OWN SELF ASSESSEMENT. So then, a new pilot scheme, a monitored test of WHEELCHAIR BUDGETS starts. Even though apparently kicking up a lot of fuss and suing them doesent work. All I can say is you only do stuff half heartedly!!! You let them tell you what to do. This stuff isnt hard, but you have to take charge.

Level thee.
The NHS bosses which INCLUDES the guy who is both parlimentary politician and in charge of everything the NHS does. At the top. This is currently Simon Stevens. He is in charge and responsible for everything NHS on behalf of the UK government. HE and his department are charged with telling the CCGs exactly what to do, when to do it, and what is expected from them. As I showed you, one of those things is right here!!! https://www.england.nhs.uk/personal-hea ... r-budgets/
And he has a whole huge department of people running the NHS overall and is in control. At the top, globally. in charge of running ALL of the NHS including a global head of wheelchair services or some similar name etc. The engine driver of the NHS.

Level four.
The individual CCG trusts that organise local areas hospital budgets. And local area hospitals. And they do as they are told from the bosses above them. These are just the same as an area "shop" manager. They do as told by the boss. At least they are supposed to. Yours being a pain? TALK TO THE BOSS not the local shop manager. Because he doesent care what you want or say. He only cares what his boss says.

Level five. WCS. Who just havent a clue what they are supposed to be doing. Mostly because this isnt a properly run business but a frankly super slow, highly ineficient socialised medicine full of slow and couldnt care less layers. Nobody needs to achieve a thing. Socialism is always like this. Thats why all socialist countries go bust.


////////////////////


DONT tell me my way doesent work. Or that its bullshit. Because I am on my 3rd budget, 9 years on, from before ANYONE ever even had a powerchair budget, and got the whole thing started. What do you have? Or accomplished?

You are like the99 percent, one of lifes normals in society. You have allowed them to slot you into their system their way, to wear you down on their pre planned protectionist merry go around.

You allowed them to assess you. You allowed them to point you to their complaints system built and designed to keep problems like you away from anyone in charge and out of their hair. As such you will get nowhere. Except delayed, worn down and subdued. Like the vast majority. I refused all that stuff outright. Bullshit method?

Just look at who is winning. I am sat in this modded soon to be lithium chair: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7455&start=600
And given a cheque 3 years to do with whatever I like. You?
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby MichaelB » 19 Aug 2018, 18:17

I know all of the procedures and hierarchy but the CCG's ignore the rules and they aren't accountable. The NHS can't control them, they are the NHS bean counters, the same problem exists with continuing health care, NHS bosses like Simon Stevens produce a National Framework with rules and regulations which the CCG's tear up and write their own, every disability group is fighting that and getting nowhere! A bit bigger budget involved than PWB so they definitely don't want to move. The systems don't work, they do what they want knowing that you can't take legal action. Their legal teams know this and will let you try but you don't have any law to use.

The only way for the majority to get what we are entitled to and make the system work is beat them and set precedents so others who follow get the same, that means winning at their game, someone has to do that or it'll never change. Maybe the few it impacts on could write to Simon Stevens but I can't see it being the system everyone has to use, it needs to be fair for everyone. That is what I want to achieve not individual fights.

I've already had 3 wheelchairs in 3 years from Access to Work so I am quite capable of getting what I want without a PWB, it would be nice to have on top of A2W but I can't see me getting funding for 3 chairs in 3 years somehow. I don't need the PWB, it wouldn't cover the cost of a suitable chair anyway I'd still have a substantial personal contribution to make probably more than I do with A2W. The only important thing is to beat them into providing PWB for power chairs for everyone who wants to go down that route not just to get one for me.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 19 Aug 2018, 18:49

>>>I know all of the procedures and hierarchy
Then why did you ASK???

>>>but the CCG's ignore the rules and they aren't accountable.
YES they are.

>>>The NHS can't control them, they are the NHS bean counters,
NO they are not. They are LOCAL bean counters.

>>>the same problem exists with continuing health care, NHS bosses like Simon Stevens produce a National Framework with rules and regulations which the CCG's tear up and write their own, every disability group is fighting that and getting nowhere! A bit bigger budget involved than PWB so they definitely don't want to move. The systems don't work, they do what they want knowing that you can't take legal action.

Of course you can. Its all a matter of effort, how, and how much energy you have to argue your case. But that woud take forever and cost a fortune.

But you miss the point. I won, and I have what I fought for. So can anyone else. Its all a matter of effort, and energy. And going above the local bean counters. Those that shout loudest and are a thorn, get dealt with rapidly. Those who join into the daft merry go round never succeed. Bullshit loud way works.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby MichaelB » 20 Aug 2018, 14:15

I asked because I wanted one point of contact that can tell a CCG what to do but there isn't one because when they introduced PWB they also brought in a complaint system.
Try and go above it and you just get sent back to it. That is the price you pay for having a system, the people who create it don't want any hassle;. NHS aren't going to jump on a CCG who are not providing a PWB when it might cost more than providing a chair, the CCG just have a local policy which will include best value.

That is the opposite to a personal health budget where they expect someone doing it to save money compared to a care company. That is what the CCG and NHS are used to.

Not everyone can shout, that is not what this is about to me, I've already got 3 chairs in 3 years paid for with no shouting, A2W even ignoring WCS after I explained how useless they could be, so maybe learning the system and playing it are a little bit more effective. Try that using any other system and you are lucky to get 1 in 5 years, but I guess that is what you are stuck with. If I can play the PWB system and get them to agree to fund a power chair then others won't have to shout they will get what they are entitled to which is how it should be. It is about principles not individual benefit, I'll continue on, haven't really started other than threatening legal action and see where I get to luckily I can usually work out how to get what I want within a system, it just takes more time.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 20 Aug 2018, 14:18

NHS aren't going to jump on a CCG who are not providing a PWB when it might cost more than providing a chair, the CCG just have a local policy which will include best value.


Yet, they do!
And not only me... Theres others on here even.
And who is to say what is best value? The NHS choices site and the WCS remit is to provide a solution that suits your lifestyle, holistic as well as clinical needs. And its not like there were given an option! Its not optional!

It clearly says that they WILL provide a powerchair budget, and that it WILL replace the current voucher scam (scheme), even though this will run alongside it for 12 months (4 left). After that its dead.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby MichaelB » 20 Aug 2018, 16:03

wcs.jpg
Attached clipping from response to my request for a PHB. This is what 12 CCG's in the north work to. It needs to be changed as in my opinion it doesn't fulfil the obligations, they only have 2 power chair options. You'll notice that they have even created their own organisation to do it as an NHS entity. So if the NHS create the organisation why would they change it? I can understand the reasoning, cost, better deals as more business for fewer suppliers, spare parts stock and easier for their technicians to setup and service. But it doesn't fulfil the obligation. My chair is not suitable for my working day, they have tried to sort but I just sorted an Ottobock on A2W and gave up, tried both the options and neither is any use. This is exactly the situation a PWB is for.

It has to be fought, not for one individual with a loud voice but for all those in the 12 areas affected. Even if I get NHS support for my case it doesn't help anyone else so if I want to change it for others I need to change the system. It is not just taking on 1 CCG but 12 and their own supply and service company. This is why they fight so hard to not change anything.
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wcs.pdf
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 20 Aug 2018, 16:29

Yes, mines one of the 11.

I have a budget anyway... Why? Because they cant really say no if you explain it right :lol:

So nice letter, but ultimately its meaningless. Unless you let them get you into their merrygo round "system"... So they can tell you no. But others that try a little harder yes. Socialist medicine at its confused and inneficient best.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 22 Aug 2018, 14:52

Just had a word with "service lead" (whatever that means) who is in charge and controls the Wheelchair services and a several other departments, which is in one of your 12 CCGs you mentioned above. The woman there just called me and apologised about how long it took to get my cheque sorted out. She said that the reason is that much like the other 11 CCGs, you mention, that they didnt really know what was going on, or understand their responsibilities until I had pushed the point with a bill and personal assesement (and a lot of redicule since I was already on the scheme they hadnt heard of for 7 years) and pointed out what the NHS web page actually said. I had sent them a bill in january, based on my self assessement and the purchase of the Salsa.

She apologised and said the wheelchair services didnt even know that power wheelchair budgets were even a "thing" till I billed them. Had never heard of it. So now after my slighltly frenzied attack on them for their ignorance, and going higher, and sending out a few letters to the top, ad one or two calls they do... They now understand that they have no choice, and are late getting organised due to ignorance. Its all new to them! Only now do they understand their responsibility. Then AFTER hurriedly "assessing" me, (they came, listened, and agreed with my own written personal assesement, and ticked a few boxes, etc -- took around 5 minutes and left) and then sent me a cheque. Took them many months this time. So now my WCS are understanding that they must offer this to others too, and are hurriedly sorting out their paperwork and offer. They didnt know, and so ignored me initially. The final details were supposed to have had completed over a year ago.

So there's hope yet. IF you complain to the top, and everywhere else, dont leave the phone alone, and shout loudly enough to wake the dead. REPEATEDLY. Only then do the super slow socialist medicine systems change ANYTHING at all. You must kick them into action. So it looks like shouting loudly HAS changed things for all. Since they cant offer me a cheque and nobody else. At least in my wheelchair services.

The next argment is this. The AMOUNT. They assess you (me in this case) and allow a budget based on whay they expect to pay for the agreed chair. + 3 years maintainance, and a cushion (jay2) and a back. At the discounted prices they pay. Rather than retail. Which is incorrect. But thats the next fight. In my case I bought trade (freind of freind) so it covers everything regardless but thats not the point. So... A new fight begins!
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby MichaelB » 22 Aug 2018, 17:29

Haha, I had exactly the same ignorance, I told WCS that PWB's were coming when they were attempting to resolve my Spectra XTR problems , they knew nothing about it. I then got passed on to the CCG who also knew nothing. I had to give them links to the NHS webpages! Sadly nowhere in the PWB documents does it refer to power chairs so instead of it being every wheelchair they made their own local decision to exclude them which is wrong. When they replaced the Spectra with the Salsa and it still wasn't suitable I had meeting after meeting before they accepted that for the use I wanted it wasn't ideal. That is when I should of been able to get PWB but as you can see from the letter they won't accept it.

The problem now is that because there is a PWB policy there is also a formal complaint procedure, I've been dealing with the head of WCS who has tried to get the PWB but it gets stopped at CCG level and they won't budge. The WCS staff went to PWB training but I am sure that the CCG didn't. There is no 1 person to change that other than the ombudsman but he won't take it on until you exhaust the complaint procedure, you have to play their game if you want to change the policy. No one left higher at WCS and no-one at the faceless CCG. I'd imagine that there are more in exactly that position so we need to set precedents where the CCG are told what to do, getting a result for one person just isn't enough.

As far as I am concerned I am sorted 3 chairs in 3 years plus the WCS Salsa, can't really complain about that. I'll just follow the complaint procedure and not let go, no rush or stress as I already have what I want. Simple really as all the documents say it should be available and they are not providing it.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 22 Aug 2018, 17:36

Haha, I had exactly the same ignorance, I told WCS that PWB's were coming when they were attempting to resolve my Spectra XTR problems , they knew nothing about it. I then got passed on to the CCG who also knew nothing. I had to give them links to the NHS webpages! Sadly nowhere in the PWB documents does it refer to power chairs so instead of it being every wheelchair they made their own local decision to exclude them which is wrong. When they replaced the Spectra with the Salsa and it still wasn't suitable I had meeting after meeting before they accepted that for the use I wanted it wasn't ideal. That is when I should of been able to get PWB but as you can see from the letter they won't accept it.


A letter, or 20 letters, in the scheme of things mean absolutely nothing if its wrong. Its because they are stupid. They can write letters with all kinds of delusional garbage in them till the cows come home if they want, but the facts say that they are plainly wrong. Dont accept it, show them WHY!!! Your job is to get that through to them as I just have (again) here.

Because the ccg are too stupid to understand english. Often willfully so as change is too much trouble. Esp if they are socialists and dont like the whole budget idea. I explained where they were going wrong VERY CLEARLY. And now they are doing it for all, belatedly and probably against their will. Because my anger, and persistence and actual facts that are easy to show, bothers them once they understand things properly. And possibility of newspapers or worse covering their incompetance are a bit too scary for them. So you just needed to try a little harder. And pressure them. I was told that its an institution and it cant be changed. Wrong, it can. But its not easy like you think. Its a massive army of people with no responsibility and no captain. They dont like change. You have to force them to change direction. Or all you get is the merry go round system/excuses.
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